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so looks like it might be us then dd was 6 days late and ds was 6 days early so could go either way but when i went for my scan they put my date back 6 days
Hi, well, looks like I'm the third to have a (tentative) due date of 2nd January! I've name-changed as it's so early on in the pregnancy and I know a couple of girls on MN. This will (all being well) be my second dc.
No real symptoms yet, maybe some stretching in the pelvis, but I might be imagining that. Nausea didn't kick in last time until about 7th week, so that's something to look forward to! Viscious heartburn sounds nasty.
hi ive had no nausea really only bits but boy am i teird feel like i could go to sleep forever i know i shouldnt moan about not having many systoms (i didnt with dd but did with ds) but i dont feel pregnant i have to keep reminding myself i am!
Hi, after 9 months of trying and a very irregular cycle I'm joining you lovely ladies. Did a hpt yesterday and had a BFP - woo hoo!! By my calculations my due date will be 4th Jan 2009. No symptoms yet, looking forward to the sickness and sciatica again
Great someone finally got brave enough to start this thread! I reckon I'm due on the 2nd Jan too but will prob end up with elective section as have already had two so had been tentatively posting on the due dec thread. Feeling very sick here although not too much chucking yet thank goodness. Got docs appt on Monday and hoping to sort dates out a bit further - last period March but pretty sure I'm not more than 4/5 weeks despite missing one already - still bf ds so things a bit all over the place. Looking fwd to having seen someone medical, always feels a bit more official then. Still a bit shell shocked as usually takes us a while and this time it's all happened first time trying. Have a dd who's 2.7 years and ds has just turned 10 months.
Massive congrats all round look fwd to chatting - will prob flit between here and dec if that's ok?!
Hi MsS, feel quite different this time around. First time was excited but terrified of what was to come. This time, we've been ttc for so long, that it was relief and much much excitement. DD was a bit of an angel child as a newborn - I was really lucky - here's hoping for the same this time!
okaythen, it does feel more official when you see the doctor and midwife Can i ask what it's like with two dc as you already have two? I am abit nervous about how i will cope with a 2yr old and a newborn.
Heathersmummy it must be wonderful to be pregnant after ttc for so long I concieved straight away so i have no idea what it must be like to be so frustrated.
As i bought a pack of 2 tests, i took the other test today even though i had already taken the first one and knew i was pregnant. I thought, i won't need this test again so instead of throwing it away i took it
I don't think you ever get bored of seeing 2 lines appear!
Hi everyone. Just wanted to say congrats! I am a Jan 08 mummy - am stunned how time flies! Laughalot is right, it's fab to be on the last knockings over Christmas...except the alcohol of course
Congrats eyeballs! Don't know how I'll feel waddling about over Christmas, my hubby thinks it's fantastic - he'll have his own taxi service (or so he thinks !)
Congrats ladies I had dd in Jan 08 and i remember tentatively joining our thread, it's lovely to have the support off others who know how your feeling and afterwards on post natal too for somewhere to moan
MsSparkle, having two dcs is great but I'll not lie and say it's not hard work at times. When ds was tiny it wasn't as hectic as I'd thought mainly because he was a much faster bfer than dd had been and slept a lot so dd didn't lose too much of our time initially. We've tried to involve dd as much as poss at each stage which has helped. The most hectic time so far was when ds hit around 4 months and wasn't so easy just to leave down. AT the min I'm having to be on my toes a lot too as ds is now crawling and into everything - dd loves being "chased" around the house. The great thing is that they entertain each other and are good pals already - I think once they start smiling and babbling they really charm their big siblings. Don't worry if initially dc1 isn't too fussed by the baby as I think they like their siblings at this stage but it's a bit boring when they just sleep and cry. It's really nice watching that relationship grow, my two are really good together and really make us smile - not sure what's so funny but often they are in fits of giggles in the back of the car just looking at each other. I think in a few years they'll be ganging up on me - just recently when I told dd off she went to find her brother to tell him all about it and that "Mummy is very grumpy today"! I worried a lot about dd and how she'd adjust but it was fine and I think this time it'll be different again because they'll have each other so a new arrival won't be such a shock.
Couple of things just to look out for don't panic if dc1 gets really clingy towards the end of this pg my dd got very protective of me and it was impossible to move without falling over her the last few weeks but from talking to friends this is common. Also don't take it personally if dc1 sulks with you a bit once you get home from hospital, dd prefered dad for a few days but then softened - I think she was a bit shy and unsure as I'd gone away then reappeared with an extra person. Oh and don't feel bad if dc2 doesn't monopolise your time the same way dc1 did, they've got an extra person to entertain them to make up for it! HTH
kidsfromfame, I should have mentioned that I'm on a namechange too for the same reasons.
Hope everyone is well today, I'm off swimming with ds this morning, he does waterbabies classes.
MsSparkle - I'll give you the names of a couple of bokks when I'm on again later which we found good for explaining about babies to a younger child - they're totally picture based so great as you can explain as much or as little as they'll manage.
No bother, dd was 21 months when ds came along so similar kind of gap. Right I looked out those books, both published by Child's play Ltd and illustrated by Annie Kubler - one is called "Waiting for Baby" (isbn 0859539733) the other "My New Baby" (isbn 0859539741). Should be able to find them on Amazon dd loved them and still really likes them, we're prob going to get There's House Inside My Mummy this time too.
Oooh hello, i've had three days of BFPs and still really can't believe i'm actually pregnant. We weren't really trying but weren't really not trying iykwim, and although i'm trying not get my hopes up too much as its still early days, I need to share this with someone other than the other half! Think i'm due on the 8th Jan and this is my first one eek! Good luck everyone, hope the next few weeks are good for you
Thanks MsSparkle and congrats too! I haven't really had any signs yet which I should be pleased about but don't feel very pregnant, keep expecting AF to turn up at any moment. Hope you aren't feeling too ropy!
I am feeling tired, no sickness (i didn't suffer sickness with dd so hopefully this one will follow suit.) I do feel pregnant though. I guess it's where i have been pregnant before so i know what my body feels like when it is and isn't pregnant. It sounds strange but my frame of mind goes really chilled out.
I have some mild "AF" like cramps, perfectly normal.
Hello, I found out that I am 4 weeks pregnant yesterday and I have calculated that my due date is about the 10th Jan. I am still having weird crampy feelings a bit like AF feels like but not as bad. Is this normal?
May I join you? I will be 5 wks tomorrow making my due date 6 Jan based on ovulation and 4 Jan by my lmp.
DH and I had been wobbling around for months about whether or not to go for no 3 and after being broody for soooo long I was just starting to think that maybe we wouldn't when I found out I was already pg! Boy was I shocked - he on the other hand said he already knew!
Looking back I had quite a few signs, but was putting them all down to a virus I had a couple of weeks ago.
Its already different from my previous 2 pregnancies, I have 2 DSs aged 6 and 4 and I had no symptoms at all at this stage with either of them.
This time I have been nauseas on and off, had hormonal headaches and I am just soooo tired I feel as if I could sleep 24/7. I have also completely gone off anything sweet and as a committed chocoholic that's come as something of a shock to the system - can't stop eating apples though so can't be a bad thing!
We are currently trying to get our heads around the prospect of becoming a family of 5 but are pleased and excited at the same time .
Welcome to the thread moosemama and congrats! Glad there's another person who's expecting number three, it's def a bit daunting.
Welcome too, to mermaid31 and MissHairspray!
Having a really naff day here, was supposed to be taking ds for his waterbabies underwater photoshoot but he was up all night vomiting so it was a no go Very disappointed but we'll hopefully make the next one. He's still pretty lathargic and pukey this eve although has managed some diaralite so hopefully we've turned a corner. Very glad dh had the day off today as we got no sleep last night and have been able to snooze a bit during the afternoon.
Saw GP this morning and have now got a booking in appt with the mw for the 22nd.
Now I know it's still early days and many of our due dates have been officially "confirmed" but I thought I'd start a wee list that we can add to before too many more people join us - that way we should manage to keep up. Hope no-one minds...
Okaythen i will keep my due date a ?? as i don't see the doctor until next Thursday (15th) so i don't know an exact date. I think it's very early January but i'm not sure?
I have been feeling so tired and emotional. The slightest thing sets me off in tears!
no prob MsS, just thought we'd better get organised - just spotted a typo, meant haven't rather than have for due dates (pg brain kicking in already ).
Thanks okaythen its nice to know there are others out there in the same boat - dh is pretty supportive but he has already started rolling his eyes when I start reading out 'interesting' facts from one of my pg books
okaythen, it's funny because one minute we are all talking about the early stages then before we know it, it will be scan time and we'll all be complaining about back ache and big bumps! As you already know this being your third, the first stages go so fast then the last few weeks seem to drag!
Generally, our midwife schedules an appointment for 8-10 weeks, so there is time to schedule the NT scan. But I imagine every area is different. You can always call the GP and ask.
Well this morning has been a disaster so far. I have been having the worst mood swings over the last couple of days and this morning I was like some sort of angry demon!
I was horrible to DH, short tempered with DS1 and even snappy with the dogs!
I'm finding this really hard to cope with as the boys don't know I'm pg yet and are so I can't explain to them why I'm so all over the place. There's only so many times you can say "sorry, Mummy is just really tired".
DS1 is a very sensitive little boy, and always struggles to cope if I get ill for more than a couple of days. He has always been very sensitive to my moods and I really have to watch myself around him, so this is doubly hard on him. We did get some time in the playground before school to sit in the sun together and he seemed fine but then we had tears before he went in because I can't help out this morning as his brother has a hospital appointment. Problem is our surgery only books Midwife appointments on a Tuesday so I could potentially have to miss a few sessions and the school.
DH obviously does know why I'm being so awful but even he looked as if he would have hidden in a cupboard if he'd been able to this morning! Bless him though - he still stayed around to help out and walked half the way to school with us making himself late for work - if I was him I would have run for cover!
I feel awful about upsetting DS1, especially as after a nice walk in the sunshine I feel much better now and have been having a lovely time with his little brother .
I too got a BFP yesterday. Going to doctor tomorrow to be certain… but I am sure. Cravings include ginger beer and toast and peanut-butter. I’ve worked it out that I’m due mid January.
DS1 is home from school and all's quiet on the western front !
(Mind you haven't broken it to him yet that his brother has been given another appt same time next week, which means no Mummy helping in class - again ) Think I'll pick my moment to break that news!
chefswife congratulations! Cravings so early! I would like to add about the peanut butter though and please don't think i'm being a fuddy duddy but if you have a history of eczema in your family then it's best to stay clear of the peanuts I'll find you some info.
hello ladies, may i join you? found out i was pregnant today with no 1 after 18 months of trying. i think i am technically due in the first week of Jan. very excited! Congrats to everyone else too. Hope to pick up some good advice from all you experienced mums.
I'm trying to do some prep work for our move, but so much of it involves lifting and DH is being absolutely manic about me doing any lifting. So - I'm list maker today I guess. I'll have to work out the menu plan for the rest of the month (using what's left in the food cupboard!) - could make for some interesting meals
Hi guys, starting to worry about the prospect of having to get the tube in rush hour when I might be feeling ill - anyone have any advice? I'm only 5 weeks gone and it was awful this morning, so hot and I started feeling a bit sick so then got panicky about it. I think any ms is mostly all in my head at the moment, although having said that i'm starving but don't feel like anything to eat, and when I do eat I feel quesy for a bit so maybe that's the start of it.
It's a bit strange isn't it, feeling like your body is just doing its own thing and you have no idea what it may or may not do next!
Hello, Just found out I am PG with my first! I am due on 12th Jan I think. Don't really feel any different except that I feel like I have period pains. Wish I felt preggers, then it might feel real!!
Speaking of m/s - I've had some in little waves, but I've noticed that every morning I seem to wake up literally feeling "hung over." I haven't had any alcohol, and I'm thinking this has got to be part of the m/s as I don't normally feel this way. Kind of "oh, I need to eat something and this will go away, but I don't want to go near food" feeling. It's reassuring, as symptoms go, but bleah!
hi ladies, does anyone know how early you can have a scan to start checking everything is ok? i live in central london so can easily go privately, just wasnt sure how soon! thanks
hi ladies, does anyone know how early you can have a scan to start checking everything is ok? i live in central london so can easily go privately, just wasnt sure how soon! thanks
Hi ladies - just crashing in to say good luck to you all - I had my first, a dear daughter, on 10th January and remember joining this thread about a year ago - cannot believe how quickly time has gone. I had a private scan at 8 weeks just to set mind at rest - you can go before but it can add to anxiety if you don't see stuff and have to go back again. Odd recommendation but remember to buy a snowsuit for baby in good time as if you start looking in december as we did they can often be bringing in summer clothes and there are none around - and get 0-3 months - anything smaller and it simply won't last whereas big just looks cute on TINY baby. Oooh - so pleased for you all it almost makes me want to start trying again
Ok…. The exercise thing is doing me in. I run about 3 miles, 4 times a week, but am seriously having difficulty. My doctor said it was fine to continue throughout the first trimester, but man, I’m dragging my ass. I don’t even want to walk fast. It’s like everything has just turned slow mo for me. I can make through a 20 minute pilates or yoga session though but was hoping anyone had any good, low impact aerobics videos for recommendation.
Hullo all, welcome and congrats to the new additions to the thread - aren't we filling up nicely?!
I've not much time to post at the mo, but wanted to make sure thsi thread pops up on my threads
I'm around 6wks now, and I have a constant 'hangover' feeling, odd nausea but no sickness and lots of ligament stretching and aches. I am already down to one pair of jeans, since the - ahem - tighter ones just make me feel sick as they press on my tum!!! . I can't bear to have to crack open the matty-wear already but I also don't want to buy clothes that won't fit in a few days weeks!
I shoudl be seeing MW on monday so we'll see what happens with scans, etc. I had an early scan at 9 wks last time as previous pg was a missed mc.
barristermum, thanks but i don't agree with you about the 0-3 months clothes thing My dd was in newborn stuff for the first couple of months as 0-3 was so big it was just silly putting her in them. My friends dd wasn't in 0-3 until she was over 3 months old! I would also advise any new mum NOT to by any baby clothes as you are showered with so many as gifts when the baby is born you just end up with too much that won't get worn
I have been so moody today, i have just felt yuck I couldn't be bothered with customers today, you know what it's like working with public! I don't see the doctor until next Thursday.
Have just found out rather unexpectedly that No 3 is on the way (starting to get used to the idea now though )
I think my due date is the 6th January as lmp was 1st April (very apt )
No major symptoms yet, occasional nausea, achy bbs but no sickness (very unusual for me was extremely sick with both my dds - maybe this one's a blue one?)
I also don’t have much in the way of symptoms just very tired. Think I might be missing a bit of iron… not drinking my weekly quota of Guinness. I’m at 6 weeks also but haven’t experienced not fitting into anything yet… although my little black number might be snug if I tried it on… not going to. don’t need to know.
TheSlightestTeuch - That's exactly how I've been feeling - like I'm hungover, especially when I first get up. My clothing selection is getting limited, but mainly because I've packed half of it, as we're moving at the end of the month.
I'm planning on registering right away at the new surgery as soon as we've moved, and then getting an appointment with midwife then, as I will be about 8-9 wks then. I hope it will be enough time to schedule the NT scan and bloodwork at that point.
Actually i noticed today i am getting abit snug around the waist! I'm only about 5 weeks gone, i think as this is my second my tummy mussles aren't as tight as they once were.
I am so tired and moody. It's frustrating no one knowing yet. I just wanna tell people but i can't yet.
I eat plenty of greens. I think I’m just adapting plus stress of trying to get 2 sculptures done and moving from London to Vancouver Island in 3 weeks. What I really want to do is climb into bed and read and read and read…
Triggles, you saying "bloodwork" sends me all funny! The big downside for me about pregnancy is blood tests as i HATE needles. I remember last time going to get one done and they mixed my sample up so i had to go again! Oh the traumer!
I hate blood work too. They knew me well at the clinic at home… (hyperthyroid…lots of blood work) and they always got the best nurse for me. The first time, the intern nurse stuck me three times before she got it right. I vomited and then fainted.
MsSparkle In a way, it kind of is - or some of them are looking at the tests this morning going "no way! is that a second line?" - or even "I don't believe it yet, so I'm just going to lurk a bit and not post!"
Come on - if it's positive, jump right in, say hello and join us!
I'm not fond of blood work - who is, really? But chefswife it makes me nuts when they stick you multiple times. On my left arm, there is a vein that looks easy, but rolls when they try to take blood from me. So I always say "here, use my right arm, this vein right here" - usually they do, but occasionally you get a numpty who says "oh no, i'll decide - this one on your left looks better". So I tell them absolutely not - it's MY arm - use this one or don't take it. I do explain why, but it's aggravating when they don't listen. You'd think they would understand I'm just trying to avoid problems! I mainly know this about my arms from years of blood tests, but also because in nursing training years ago, we actually had to practice on each other - not on dummy arms like they do now. ouch!
Triggles are you serious? You had to practice on each other? Oh god. I wouldn’t have made it far in nursing school. I began an Arts Conservation degree out of highschool and one project I was conserving required me to use a syringe and my mouth watered like mad and I didn’t feel to good. I had to change projects.
MsSparkle I feel great today. Maybe the folic has kicked in… I don’t know. Still no morning sickness… crossing fingers. But I did notice agitation setting in yesterday after I watched a glass roll off my table and break on the carpet. Going shopping at Knightsbridge today with a friend to find her a dress for a wedding she’s going to.
Congratulations and welcome 1973magpie and tinkishothothot!
I have been feeling much better. Mood swings cleared up once I managed to calm down a bit and my anxiety reduced. We have finally got our heads around things and are really looking forwards to no3 now.
I get the hungover feeling as well and can't even look at breakfast until I've been awake at least half an hour - an hour sometimes and then I have to be quite picky about what I can actually stomach.
Luckily DH has been fantastic and has been getting up and feeding the boys then bringing me a drink in bed so I get an extra half an hour to get myself together before facing the world.
I haven't been having much nausea, more food aversions, but luckily am not off coffee so far this time. I only drink decaff anyway but I really miss it if I can't drink it and couldn't face it for 6 months either time before.
I am just coming up to 6 wks, my bbs are agony and seem to have decided to grow overnight. Not good, as I was a 34GG to start with (ended up a K cup last time ) I have also lost weight so far, so what with my waist reducing and my bbs expanding I have noticed one or two double takes from other Mums on the school run! Have already had to sort my wardrobe out and pack away anything that doesn't fit over my chest - guess I won't be seeing those tops again for a very long time!
I've also started to get 'melasma' (spelling) around my eyes again despite using spf tinted moisturiser and factor 30 suncream! I am sure someone is going to put 2 and 2 together and work it out soon. I had such dreadful melasma with both the boys I ended up looking like a panda and I was really hoping to avoid it this time round.
Have an appointment with GP on Friday evening to confirm pg and get referred to mw so I will be just coming up to 7 wks then.
Anyway, sorry to ramble on, its just nice to have someone to tell all this stuff to when you can't tell anyone in rl.
hi ladies. so i think i am due 6/1! have my four best friends from school coming from all over to my house today for a p*ss up. what the hell am i going to say that doesnt make them guess immediately?! We are 32 so most of the excuses are loooong used!
i am the opposite mm had a b cup size before dd1 now they are done to an aa i will have some of your cup size if you like scare85 - ? charmed24 - 02/01/09 TheSlightestTeuch - 02/01/09 kidsfromfame - 02/01/09 okaythen - 02/01/09 HeathersMummy - 04/01/09 MsSparkle - ?/01/09 moosemama - 04/01/09 or 06/01/09 Triggles - 06/01/09 1973magpie - 06/01/09 MissHairspray - 08/01/09 mermaid31 - 10/01/09 Chefswife - ? Shanster - ? Tink - 17/01/09 - 4 weeks
Yup MsSparkle not so much a bra as a feat of modern engineering!
scared1976 last time I was pg and had a night out I used the excuse of having had too much wine the night before and still felt too hung over to drink! Helped me explain away the slightly green look and nausea too. They did try the 'hair of the dog' line of tack but I stood my ground and noone guessed.
Another useful one is to say you are antibiotics for a water infection - that one's good if you are having to run to the loo every five minutes.
Like Teuch's idea of pouring your own though - that could work.
I'm going away for the weekend early in June with 3 of our closest friends from Uni. We went through all the excuses we could use, but in the end decided we will probably just tell them. I will be about 10 1/2 wks by then and being really good friends we would most likely tell them should anything go wrong anyway. They'll be so shocked, they were with both my other 2 (I wasn't having children - we were going to stick with dogs!)
Tink would gladly donate a couple of cups! Ahh if only 'twere possible!
Despite being ridiculously large in previous pgs I'm still surprised when I find that most maternity bra ranges don't even go up to my pre pg size! There are some really pretty mat bras out there these days, but I will still have to make do with 'over the shoulder boulder holders' lol !
Well my body seems to know what its doing - DH and the boys came back from the shops with my v favourite cake from the local bakers - haven't had one in months as I was trying to be good. I took one bite and nearly threw up on the spot. It's the first bit of refined sugar I've eaten since I can't remember when and just couldn't stomach it
Still I know its a good thing really - I just have a real aversion to eating anything that's bad for me - only tried because the boys were so proud of themselves and I didn't want to hurt their feelings!
This pg is so different from my other 2 - I couldn't get enough Ben & Jerries (sp) or Hagen Daz with DS2 and with DS1 it was chocolate custard doughnuts (all of which just the thought of now makes me want to hurl!)
Hi, I still don't really have any ms yet, but despite being hungry most of the time there seems to be nothing I fancy eating which is most unlike me. My 32Bs are also sore and swelling up - you think I would be pleased but I am quite happy with my small bust. Sorry you are all feeling so tired, I am a bit but it is probably just the heat
MsSparkles sorry for the delay in replying - I don't really mind to be honest - a ds might be nice this time though , I too am suffering with the tiredness, I feel tired when I get up each morning and am ready to fall into bed at night!!
Moosemama Decaf coffee only has 1/3 less caffeine than regular coffee. You’d be better off drinking green tea, especially one with toasted rice…mmm. That’s why monks drink it. It keeps them alert but not fidgety. Plus it’s jammed packed with antioxidants.
MsSparkle being so extremely tired, I thought originally that I had mono; the symptoms where the same.
I really feel sorry for everyone. I have no morning sickness, very slight swelling at six weeks but still not enough to cancel skinny jeans, I have easily come to terms with what I cannot eat (but man, I’m eating everything else) and the only smell so far that has turned me off was my friends old spice cologne. My tiredness subsided two days ago and I feel great. Only twice have I felt agitated; one with a friend, (I it just couldn’t bear to listen to him talk anymore) and the second was knocking over a pint glass full of water on the table, watching it roll off and break on carpet. I yelled F**K so loud. I am wrestling with two things. One; you are not suppose to eat cured meats like prosciutto or salami but what if I put on my pizza and cook it? I’m thinking that’s ok. Second; we head home in 31/2 weeks after being in London for 4 years and already friends are talking about big BBQ parties and hiking Mount Finlayson…awesome by the way. I really didn’t want to tell till at least 12th week. I guess I’m going to have to. damn.
chefswife glad you're feeling well. I believe the cured meats are okay if they are cooked. So you're moving back to Canada? Big move! I'd say you'll probably have to say something if they're talking about taking you hiking!
Thanks for the advice chefswife. I don't actually drink that much decaff, but do like a cup in the morning.
Rules of how much caffeine there is in decaff vary from the UK to the USA. We are covered by European Community (EC) guidelines which are as follows:
DECAFFEINATED COFFEE
Whatever method of decaffeination is used, the decaffeinated green coffee must contain less than 0.1 % caffeine (dry weight basis) to comply with EC regulations. This corresponds to about 3mg caffeine in a cup of decaffeinated coffee.
Both countries agree that 5-10 cups of instant decaff, depending on their size, equal 1-2 cups caffeinated.
There are of course other considerations such as the method of caffeine extraction - water method being preferable.
Interestingly, I also noticed that most places seem to agree that green tea contains 30-60mg caffeine, the higher level being attributed to tea bags rather than loose tea. Caffeine intake from green tea can be reduced by only drinking the second infusion and drinking it whilst hot to reduce the breakdown and therefore release of caffeine into the water.
I have tried green tea in the past as DH loves it and I'm aware of the many health benefits, but I've never liked tea and just couldn't get on with the taste.
I don't drink soft drinks, just water and I won't be touching chocolate during this pregnancy either, so I think my caffeine levels should be ok.
It's a minefield isn't it, remembering all the things you can and can't eat and drink. The advice has changed for each of my pregnancies - I can hardly keep up!
I'm double-posting with the other thread and getting confused... 
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and did have viscious heartburn but it has passed... 
. Do pop over to post-natal and say hello. 
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) Think I'll pick my moment to break that news! 
So I tell them absolutely not - it's MY arm - use this one or don't take it. I do explain why, but it's aggravating when they don't listen. You'd think they would understand I'm just trying to avoid problems! 
By 
