Was talking to two mums, one I've know for a while and am friendly with, one I haven't known that long yet. Was talking about the awful pregnancy I had with ds, the uncertainty we had about his health, and how lucky and happy we are now that everything has turned out so well after all that worrying.

Says the first mum "I admired you really that you didn't choose to have a termination"

Now I know she is not saying I should have had a termination, but aibu to find this comment upsetting when I'm sat there talking while looking at my gorgeous ds running around?

Er no I would be peed off too. A friend of my grandmother (ok so quite old but still..)said on meeting my DS - "oh he's a good advert for abortion isn't he?"
I was livid.
Well done for not walloping her one.

I think it was insensitive but I suspect that what she means is that she is unsure how she would have coped during the difficult time during your pregnancy when, iirc, you were very worried that your ds might have a lethal dysplasia. I think that she was wondering how she would have coped with that situation and she might feel that a termination would be the option that she would take if she was pregnant with a child who ws likely to die shortly after birth.

I don't think that she was saying, "I would have had an abortion rather than have your ds", or at least I hope she wasn't or you should have punched her!

LaDiDaDi, I'm sure she meant it in the more positive way, but I still wish she hadn't said it...

oh god it's all I can do to not punch people when they start going on about terminating a child that's standing there (had it with ds1). And they think it's OK because the child is disabled. It is crass beyond belief. And I do believe its a sign they're seeing the disability and not beyond it.

Termination is an emotive subject for anyone, why do people think its OK to talk about it as if the default position would be to terminate your child because they're disabled Grrrrr.

omg what a couple of shits to come out with stuff like that,

That's an absolutely awful thing to say.

No, I don't think you are overreacting at all. People need to think before they speak.
I had my GP tell me she thought I was depressed because I didn't have a termination with dd2 (who has Down's syndrome). dd2 was sat next to me and dd1 was also in the room

What an absolute idiot! (sorry for the strong language, but...

Oh, I think you should have walloped her one. Or at the very least gone: "Yes I know, I'm sure your Mum has had a lifetime of regrets because she didn't have you aborted."

It's a weird world we live in. As soon as children with a disability are born, they have all these (supposed) rights. Yet, before birth, it's ok to suggest that their lives will automatically be such hell that it's doing them (and their parents) a favour to abort them.

I'm not about to pretend that all children with disabilities have great lives or are easy to live with (!!!) but wouldn't it be great if there were enough help to simply make life easier for parents with a child with a disability (and for the child)? We can dream...

For those of us with a disability who live peaceful lives that are no bother to anyone, the knowledge that society would have had us killed off too, before even seeing how our lives would be, is hardly cheerful.

It's ignorance on the part of those that blithely suggest it to people in the ways you've described here. It hurts, too. A lot.

agree with Ladidadi, It is an insensitive comment but she didn't mean to be rude or belittle your lovely ds.

bit tactless of her.
I'm with Amber. I wouldn't allow termination 8just* for a disability. Its culling of the non-pefect.

no she is saying she admired you

a lot of people would have at least thought about the possibility

and saying she admired you is a lovely thing and is a compliment to your strength as a parent and a person

I admire people who don't consider it

I had a lot of scans with dd2 after having SN dd1 and knowing the risks of what could happen - something far worse than dd1's disability - I would strongly have considered it

and I admire anyone who doesn't

It does make me go when its normal to terminate for a disability and you need 'admiration' for not doing so. I have been asked several times if we would have killed dd 'if we had known'. Actually, no we wouldn't (I'm disabled myself) and her disability was caused by birth anyhow.

But more annoying are those like MIL who harp on and on that they'd rather be dead than like dd. In dd's hearing

I agree with Yurt. I think it's dreadful to discussion termination of a pregnancy when that particular child is running around in front of you! Funnily enough this thread has reminded me a "friend" made a similar comment to me a few years back for very different reasons - I had big mental health problems due to PG, and she saw me at my nuttiest times. I was not best pleased, it's not a helpful comment really, it's more about them airing their thoughts without considering your feelings.

Amber -- 'It hurts, too. A lot.' Yes. I was driving my elder son to our holiday camp last year and something came up on the radio about this, including the question of whether, with better diagnostic techniques, children with autism could be detected and terminated.

He has Asperger's. He asked me, in all seriousness, whether I would have aborted him if I'd known. He was really bloody hurt by this and by the assumption made by the presenters that no one WITH that disability could possibly be one of their listeners.

It's that 'them and us' attitude that really gets me down.

It reminds me of the Guardian article I read a few months ago - the article was about a woman with SN who did not have an amnio when preganant. The article was introduced by someone writing 'Most people would consider such a decision irresponsible' or words to that effect. I don't like that kind of blinkered/ conveyor belt thinking. Sometimes it's good not to be with the mythical 'most people'

alot of people seem to think its ok to say "did you know she was disabled before she was born?" too. Whilst I understand its something of curiosity to people, I dont think they understand the implications of what seems a simple and everyday question

We apparently must all have and desire only perfect bodies, perfect homes, perfect children, perfect love lives, perfect jobs...I'm personally SO fed up of society being this way. It's automatically irresponsible to have a child who is not like the other children? Why?

As a Minister said at the church disability conference the other day, if they could find the gene that makes people pick on those who are different or vulnerable and eliminate that instead, or find the gene that makes governments so mean with their money and support for those families and children that need it, we'd have that "better society".

I think that knowing you might not have the strength to do something is a valid thing

and admitting that you don't think you can do is something that should be respected

I'm not saying that termination is right but nor do I think that someone should be shouted down or made to feel like a murderer for saying "I don't think I can cope with this"

saying that you admire someone's strength to do something that others might find impossible is lovely I think and should be taken as it was meant - a compliment to your strength

I think it's the double standards though Cap. No-one would ever in a million years talk about terminating a child like ds2 or ds3 in front of them (for whatever reason). Yet they do it in front of ds1 (not fair on siblings, can't work with a disabled child blah blah blah). It's crass and insensitive and he understands a lot more than people give him credit for.

The assumption that the normality is to terminate for disability really annoys me. And therefore all sorts of personal questions get asked, that no-one would dream of asking about an NT child. The reality of whether people do or don't terminate isn't really relevant, but the way termination for disability (especially LD's) speaks volumes about societies attitude to LD's. People don't even realise what they're saying the old prejudices are so deep and ingrained.

And as for it being selfish to keep a disabled child......that really makes me see red.

*but the way in which termination for disability (especially LD's) is discussed*

I'm wondering why its ok to kill a disabled baby up to 40 weeks but not a non-disabled one. Obviously its the disability.
That sort of thinking leads to it being ok to kill disabled people.
I am pro-choice (up to about 16 weeks although I don't like abortion) but don't like the way its ok to pick and choose which babies are allowed to live.
Why disability? Why not gender or hair colour or eye colour?
Its cos society still sees those with disabilities as not-quite-human.

Yes that's it isn't it. I'm pro-choice as well (don't see how anyone couldn't be tbh) but its' the way termination for disabilities is discussed.

Of course there are times when it's more or less the only option for anyone including the child (anencephaly for one) - but its the difference in general public attitudes to termination for disability vs termination for lifestyle choice that I find a bit

And those attitudes are reflected in the things people say to me about ds1 (and reflect attitudes towards LD's in particular imo).

And I'm not saying people shouldn't be having terminations. It's the things people say that show that they see ds1 as being a little bit less valuable than NT kids.

Those attitudes are reflected in lots of things that people say though, not just about termination. I remember a program about a family with 3 children (2 ASD, 1NT) moving to Scotland and there were lots of comments about the NT girl that reflected a greater value placed on her life. Or the person who told me that it wasn't fair that ds1 got so much spent on his education when he wasn't going to do anything anyway (how on earth can that be an acceptable thing to say, how am I meant to reply?). Get lots of comments like that that people think are OK to say because ds1 has learning difficulties and is therefore not worth quite the same as non LD kids.

I just find these sorts of comments all one and the same really and utterly depressing.

see, I doubt I'd terminate even for a condition not compatible with life. To me, even if there's no chance the baby will live or even be born alive it would be vital to meet him or her and hold him or her for those few minutes. But thats just me.
I savour every second with dd. When she was born we were told she wouldn't live and we literally went minute by minute not knowing if it would be the last. Each minute she stayed alive was precious. Thats coloured my feelings I think. Knowing I would never have missed out on those minutes, even if had been only one.
4 years on and I still hate her being apart fromme cos her chances of making 10 are only 50/50.

<<<<hugs>>>> yurt

<<hugs>> to you too.

is it about saying they are less valuable?

or is it about saying that some people just won't be able to do it

I know of people who have adopted disabled children whose parents just couldn't handle it

maybe if they had known beforehand they would have terminated - not because disabled people are inherently worthless, but because they didn't feel up to the job

I still don't see why admitting that you aren't as strong as you would maybe like to be is the same as saying that disabled people are less valuable

Not sure. If my husband or son were to become more disabled than they are, perhaps I wouldn't be able to cope. But I'd never dream of killing them. I'd look for help or support, or if I coudn't cope, I'd look for some sort of residential placement.

I think it takes me back to the point about how society fails to give people the support they need to make a different choice, to be able to cope or deal with the situation in some more positive way?

I think for some disabilities where quality of life is going to be guaranteed terrible, I can understand termination. I'm not 100% against it. But I can only speak for me and my own family to say that we're happy to be alive.

children are hard work full stop. disabled or not.
what do these people who think they couldn't cope when their child has an accident.
happened to my freind. healthy mobile toddler. had and accident and now has severe brain damage. did she shrug and say I can't cope? of course not.
as for people who say they admire people cos they didn't get rid.
well dd was fine till the birth. what should I have done? smothered her? of course not.

For me it's not about people being able to cope or not. Individual abilities are neither here nor there. It's about the society attitude that leads people to think its perfectly OK to talk about termination for LD's in front of a child with LD's. No-one would ever talk about a child like ds2 in front of him, yet they'll do it to ds1. It's a reflection or where people view the learning disabled.

I'm on the receiving end of lots of comments that demonstrate that ds1 is not thought as worthy as people without LD's. My friend (with a learning disabled child) is too.

I'm reading A Real Boy at the moment about a severely autistic child. I wish I could find the paragraph but the author says that people with no experience of LD's are allowed to make crass comments but equally parents are allowed to get pissed off when they do.

He also talks about imagining people's comments if his son had died after choking on a coin (he came close). He said "I thought of how people would try to reassure us that in some ways David's death was 'for the best'. How many times would I be able to stand that before I screamed at someone or lashed out?'.....They were the ones who saw his disability as half a life....... I could go on ignoring people who thought David would be better off dead because he wasn't...... The sad-sigh-and-shake-of the-head-brigade could carry on giving David doe-eyed stares and rueful smiles; if they thought he was worth less than other toddlers, they were wrong"

I actually think it is insensitive to ask such personal questions with or without the disabled child present. My child is here now, she is disabled. I dont ask everyone I meet if they knew their children were going to have bulgy eyes before they were born or a big nose, or maybe big feet but people seem to think its ok to assume its ok to ask me if i knew dd was disabled. What difference does knowing such an answer make to their lives? none

Infact my child means so little to most people that I have just sat at the park with ds and not one person asked me where my disabled child was. Its as if she doesnt exist

and you know that woman who hung herslef recently and yet her son had been 'aaparently' missing for so long and no-one asked or said. It just reminded me, its because people dont really care. I do really think its to do with people attitudes aswell

Fio, i agree about it be insensitive to ask at all. Which is I know not really the point of the OP.
I work with someone who asked me "If you could turn back the clock would you have terminated DD3" - ???????
Now then. The answer to that is no. But - if the answer had been yes, and I'd had such dark thoughts, does she really think I'd be happy to discuss it at coffee break? The crassness of some people astounds me.

quite headgirl! it is just so crass

I used to take my ds to a peadiatric hydrotherapy session at my then local hospital. I was talking to another mum there whose son had been severely brain damaged by mistakes made during his birth. She said to me that if she'd known what his quality of life and life expectancy were going to be she would have told them to stop when they were working to resussitate him after delivery. But it was her who raised this issue not me and to be honest I could sympathise with her situation. I have asked myself what my choice would have been had I known my ds was going to be born with disabilities before he was born. I didn't cope at all well in the first year and came close to being sectioned under the mental health act. At that stage, in that state of mind, I would probably have said I wish I had known so I could have terminated. But now my ds is 19 and, despite his problems, doing well I couldn't possibly imagine life without him.
I feel that a person who has to live with disabilities either themselves or in a family member is in a position to have an opinion on this but it is incredibly inappropriate for another to express a view in the way of op's friend. No one can possibly know what it is like to live with disability unless they have been there and should remember this when passing judgements on the decisions the parent of a child with a disability should make or should have made.
My mum was a sn teacher working with children with severe disabilities. In the unit where she worked there were children whose diabilities were so severe and their quality of life so apparantly poor some may think it reasonable if their mums had had a termination..........but that is nobody's opinion to express, or decision to make but the parents.