so I was talking to my mum last night asking about family and got update on my nephew (pdd, mostly non-verbal, 8) and I mentioned the typing, etc. course that you were embarking on with your ds and she said that sil and b were told to cut out signing and ignore pointing, etc. as dn had no reason to talk as all his needs were being met through non-verbal communication. And since they have started this (ignoring all non-verbal queues) he has come on a lot verbally.

It sounds as if he could say some words then. DS1 has whole "sentences" he says quite happily and freely, but he can't produce any consonants - not in words, not in isolation (apart from 'da' but he can't do it on demand) which means his 'speech' is completely incomprehensible. He doesn't lack the motivation to speak, he lacks the ability. Which is frustrating for him and us.

I'd really be wary about cutting out signing as repeated research shows that it brings on verbal speech (moondog will pass out at that bit of advice, as would my supervisor who has done a lot of research on sign).

Good that it worked for your nephew though; thanks for passing it on, and probably a good example of needing to look at each child individually and really understand what's going on in each case (because cutting out sign really goes against usual advice iyswim -likewise- I;m sure lots of people think I'm barking to embark on our new programme).

sil says he can speak a lot more now. but it is very sloooooow. He has to take his time to sound things out. They have been making a lot of progress with this ear thing they're doing (I can't remember but will enquire) it is "alternative" therapy.

Interesting. I think that learning to use PECS is encouraging my DS3 (much younger, nearly 4) to have more of an urge to communicate (iyswim).

E.g. the other day he got his ball stuck behind one of the beds and instead of just getting terribly upset he came and got DH and led him upstairs and showed him where the stuck ball was. He did all this non-verbally, of course, but I was still impressed that he had the urge to communicate and that he identified that he had to show DH what the problem was - which I thought indicated "theory of mind". I don't think he could have done any of that prior to starting work with PECS.

dn has always used non-verbal communication with b and sil and I think sil has relied on this. But maybe it has made it too easy for dn NOT to talk? I know the issues are far more complicated than that (and it seems a bit cruel to me) but maybe it will in the long term encourage dn TO talk more?

I would have a very angry little girl if she hadnt been taught how to use makaton

but he does know how to use it fio. I think the theory current therapist is working under is that because all his needs are met through this communication he doesn't feel a need to try to be verbal.

I know with Ds1 that after we started signing with him his ability to communicate improved an enormous amount. We always say the words as well and he's reached the point now where he will tell you some things. It may be a bit bizarre or out of context, but for him to greet me when he comes home from school with "T and T, J and J, two Ts and two Js" as his way of saying "hello" is wonderful considering that when he was younger he didn't have that wish to impart what he knew. He could recite a story or count or list colours (he still loves doing that, supermarket trips are accompanied by the story of the Gingerbread Man ) but getting him to ask for something was an impossibility. The signing has helped him to make sense of what others were saying and to realise that he could tell other people things. He uses signs a lot now and he says the words as well.
From personal experience I know that there can easily be the desire to speak and, in differing degrees and for different reasons, difficulties in doing so. Ds1 is actually more physically verbal than I was at his age. Probably more than I am now . But he has far more difficulties understanding language and he uses speech in disordered ways a lot of the time. For example, this would have been me talking at nearly five:
Walking to the shops with my mum. Very quiet. Not saying anything. Mum asks me a question, I answer "yes". She asks what I want for dinner, I tell her "spaghetti hoops". Lots more silence. I ask her if we're having brown bread with the hoops. An awful lot more silence from me (mum has two other children who are chattering away to her). Mum asks me a question, I answer "no". Someone else appears, says "hello" asks me a question, I stare at them. I understand but I show no clear response.
And this is Tom at nearly five:
"A eighteen, a seventeen, a sixteen, a fifteen, a fourteen, a bye bye fourteen, a go see number 14, a go see number 19, a thirteen, a twelve, a 11, tidy up time music, a T and N turned da lights off a S turn da lights on. A worktime, newstime, outside a playtime, maths time a dinner. A dis lift is going up, please mind da doors, floor three, doors opening, dis lift is going down". (All in the space of a few yards). But then you ask him a question or try and tell him something and he really struggles to understand. He clearly has the willingness and ability to speak and it makes sense in its way, but if he got lost he wouldn't tell someone that he couldn't find his mummy, he'd tell them that "right a top a number three" or "put a coats, it time a outside play".
Makaton was designed to be specifially used alongside verbal speech, to help the children learn (if they were able) to speak verbally. It uses the same grammatical concepts as verbal speech, that's why if you went to Germany you'd need to relearn Makaton there.

sounds like auditory integration training (the 'alternative' ear thing). Can work well for some. DS1 won't wear headphones though .

SOunds good sixspotburnet. Well done ds3. Oooh just thought I'm doing an online floortime course at the moment and it might be ideal for your ds3. The theoretical basis of floortime is about development (such as TOM) developing via interaction. It's only available for a limited time though and there are quite a few videos to get through, but if you have the time for it I'd recommend it.

For any ABAers reading Greenspan himself doesn't slag off ABA (although some people using floortime on the forums are). He advocates its use for teaching imitation and oro-motor etc stuff for example.

oh bullet ds1's favourite book at the moment is the gingerbread man (they did it at school and he likes saying 'ing-a-eh' at the gingerbread bit).

I am still really confused about how PECS will help DS1 - suggested by newly arrived SALT . I don't think I am in denial about how serious his communication and speech problems are but I still don't 'get' how the pictures will help. I spoke to the SALT this week and she assured me enthusiastically that he would soon be able to hand over a picture of grapes to get grapes. Now that might have been a bad example because he has been able to ask verbally for grapes for ages. I want to know how it will help with sentences. I'm really not in denial but yesterday morning, he showed me a plane overhead and said his usual 'awopane in de sky' then when it went behind a cloud he turned me and said 'gone'. He has always pointed for shared attention even though everyone says ASD children don't do this. He doesn't respond to the Makaton on Something Special though DS2 does, he is signing away like mad at the moment - 16 months NT

dd couldnt get pecs, but got makaton. I think thats quite normal that they 'get' either one all the other

DS1 didn't get Makaton until he was 7 (but did take to PECS). I think because he couldn't imitate.

He was sharing attention over planes before the age of 2 as well though It was one reason why we were told there was nothing wrong with him when he was 2 (the literature saying that they don't is wrong imo!)

PECS and/or Makaton support developing language. The level to which it helps will depend on some part on how your son perceives the world. A lot (but certainly not all) children with autism can be strong visually, so having a kind of visual backup/framework can help.

I think the best thing is to try it (or both) and see.

I see what you mean, we are going to give PECS a go - I didn't mean just planes, he points at loads of things for shared attention and always has. He is obsessive about it though which is ASD !

DS1 has always shared attention well as well. Things that interest him though. Landmarks (houses we went to 4 years ago for example ), open windows, lights etc.

It upsets some pros but hey ho!

Any shared attention must be good i suppose - hopefully it will help with the writing/communication program you are starting

I can see what you mean about him trying to talk Yurt. The syllables are all there, it's the formation of them he's having difficulties with, is that right?

yep- he can intonation and the correct number of 'beats' per word. But next to no consonants - and its the one thing he seems unable to imitate at all.

I don't know if it gives encouragement but ds speech was like that - still is a bit - but we are getting consonants now and speech is getting clearer by the month. Intonation is still accurate. Non family can understand him on a good day.