DS2, 4.5, has limited speech - two/three word phrases. I'm not sure of his understanding - sometimes, it is OK and others, he is on another planet. He doesn't have hearing problems.

Initally, a year ago, a SALT and a developmental expert (not doctor) said it was autism and to only use Spanish. We live in an area with a regional language and speak English at home.

The school received considerable extra help and DS2 got weekly sessions at a local under 6 intervention centre. The therapist there says she doesn't think he is autistic. He has been very uncooperative in school. He used to bite a lot. He disconnects and appears to be in cloud cuckoo land, although it isn't that difficult to get his attention back.

A nasty separation and a year later, DS2 is making progress but is clearly struggling with language. He babbles a lot. He tells me things - often, no idea what. If I give him a very clear question, he can use part of it to answer back. We don't have conversations per se but he is trying to initiate them, just can't keep them going.

We are about to start tests at the local hospital - with a possible referral to a neurologist. The team has a good reputation. So, my questions are: do you have a child with mild autism and what are they like at home? Does your child have a speech delay at 4.5 and how are they coping? DS2 responds well to Something Special - Makaton - and the Hanen technique. How do I know if it is delay/disorder? Given that everyone is saying speak Spanish only, is there any validity in the one language approach?

Yes to specific langauge disorder, very delayed at your son's age. Great experience of Hanen,especially 'It Takes Two To Talk' our son was only diagnosed last Oct by ICAN. It was a private aseessment over two days in a classroom setting.

We have an independant SALT who visits DS at school and works alongside his TA.Disconnection tick, cloud cukoo land tick, but I guess if we were surrounded by people speaking gobbedygook all day we would zone out too.

Here is the link to my blog and our experience of Ican. there are a lot of links on the left hand side, of books and resources that I found along the way. Moondog is the lady to speak to on here, she is a SALT.

sunshinetc.blogspot.com/2008/04/ican-meath-school-assesment-part-two.html

I disagree wholeheartedly with 'orders' to only use one language.If more than 1 language is natural for you at home,then continue to use it.
I'm a salt and a product of a bilingual home, and work in a bilingual community and have a bilingula child with SLI and am a specialist in Autism so i know my stuff.

Were these peopel expecting you to switch to using a language with him that is not your native/usual one?
Where are you?

Thanks.

Already read a lot it, Tclanger - it was one of your posts that finally galvanised me to ask for some advice. Will definitely go through your references.

"It Takes Two to Talk" does work but where next? He has gone from one word to two and sometimes three. And now?

Yes, Moondog, they want to "simplify" the situation and for us all to use Spanish, as opposed to English (for me) and Galician (for the school). Obviously, pigs might fly - given the school system is in Galician and I nurture and try and support him in English, with English based resources. Nothing similar to Makaton is available here .

After the initial diagnosis, I went away and read about autism and bilingualism and nothing convinced me that dropping down to one language was such a good idea. However, if DS2's problem is a S/L disorder, would he make more progress with just one language?

Thanks, you two, I'm off to bed - all the emotion of posting is definitely too much.

Hi 1066. My DS doesn't have autism but a developmental delay due to brain atrophy. He is 3.3, his understanding is really excellent, however his expressive language is very delayed, he only speaks using single words but the list of words is very extense (he is starting to atempt little 2 word sentences). Sorry I cannot advice anything about autism, but can share our experience as a bilingual family.

For DS's first year of life I spoke to him in my mother tongue, when I found out about his problem, ALL the (excellent) professionals I saw adviced me that two languages would confuse him and that we should switch to only one language. DH is English, we were living in England so we chose to speak to him in English. In my very VERY honest opinion, it is the best decision we ever took. There is no way DS would have the comprehension he has now had we confused him with two languages. But then it took plenty of hard work to get him where he is, I am not sure how severe your DS's problem is.

What they told us is that we can include more languages after he learns English which is what I plan to do.

Hang in there 1066, I know just how you feel, Do email if you need to bend an ear.

Morning.

TinySocks - that is excellent about your DS. He sounds like he is doing really well. What sort of things do you do with him at home to support his language?

No, we're not a bilingual family. I'm English, living in Spain and I was quite shocked at how strongly I feel about raising my DSs in English.

We're getting a lot of support here but I don't quite trust the SALT who originally diagnosed because he arrived with an agenda, IMO. Mind you, he isn't the person who works with DS2, so that is OK.

Realistically, the only way of going down to one language would be moving us all back to the UK, and I am loathe to do it. The overall quality of life is wonderful here BUT if it would make a real difference to DS2 .....

Tclanger - how did you go about getting your assessment? I have thought of doing that, alongside what is happening here to decide what to do next. By the way, I am off to look at ICAN more closely, in case that answers my question.

I just wanted to clarify, when I say "But then it took plenty of hard work to get him where he is, I am not sure how severe your DS's problem is." What I mean is that my DS's language problem is severe (it took plenty of long long months of hours and hours of work to get him to start understanding something) I am sure that two languages wouldn't have worked out with him, but if your DS's problem is not as severe then things might be different for him.

You can contact ICAN via the talking point website on the left with the useful links. It was very expensive and we had to raise funds, but we have a 41 page report details M's strengths weaknesses and his needs. If we need to transfer to a speech and language unit we'll be armed with the necessary info for a statement

My DS, 4.1 has big problems with speech/understanding. ASD has "probably" been ruled out. I am waiting for a written follow up to DS paed appointment to find out whether they have pronounced on whether it's a delay or disorder....

This book (written for parents of kids with ASD) has a very useful last chapter about how to keep a "conversation" going with a kid with very limited vocabulary

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giggle-Time-Establishing-Connection-Communication/dp/1843107163/ref=sr_1 _1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209456380&sr=8-1

One thing that massively helped with sentence length (other than hanen type building up - you know - ball! kick ball! mummy kick ball!) is using PECs (picture exchange system). So DS had a little book with pictograms - so to get him
to say "I want juice" I would get him to point to the pictograms and say the words for "I" + "Want" + "Juice". Then he progressed after the
basic 3 word requests on to more complex requests, such as I want mummy run on grass!

These websites have more info on PECs:-

http://www.pecs.com/

www.do2learn.com (has plenty of free pictograms you can print out).

I really really worry about denying a child access to one language. It will only exacerbate their isolation. It might be something to consider if maybe only one person in the child's entire circle speaks a language but i would argue that thev emotional trauma of pulling al anguage from under their feet suddenly, far outweighs the benefits.

I work in 'Welsh' Wales where most of the population is Welsh speaking. I can put my hand on my heart and say that i don't think one of the people I work with has problems in this respect.If the child is from a bilingual home,they tend to even out in lang. ability across two languages.

i work with many peopel with learning disabilities and additionally it never fails to amuse me to see one of them helping a staff mmeber learining Welsh for example.

Brilliant!

Similar situation here to TinySocks - I spoke to DS in my mother tongue, we live in the UK, we switched to using only English when his autism became more and more apparent at age 2 (he was diagnosed with autism a year later, aged 3). For HIM, it was the right decision - he learns his first language like an adult learns a foreign language. EVERYTHING has to be taught systematically - pronouns, tenses, prepositions... He's had very intensive input via an ABA programme for 18 months now and is catching up wit his peer group - at the last assessment his expressive language was only about a year behind. I don't think that would have been possible if we had tried to teach all that stuff in two languages, there just aren't enough hours in the day. Moondog is probably right and it does even out across two languages eventually - but I think for DS that would take longer, and the delay would have a knock-on effect on all other areas of his life, affect his integration in school etc.

However - we are now a monolingual household, and that is a great shame. DD, who hasn't got SN, is losing out because of that, as I find it impossible to speak my mother tongue to her and not DS.

Instinctively, I agree with you, Moondog. DS2 goes to school and has a childminder, while I work. Yet, his English is definitely his stronger language. But, I am aware I may be in denial (way too much analysing going on ).

The school and therapist originally pushed a PECS type of thing, but it has definitely gone by the board; I have a feeling as they were moving away from the autism diagnosis. I will get on to it - he is definitely getting much better at repeating simple phrases (actually in both languages - Spanish and English) and it makes great sense. He loves "Something special".

There is one thing that really worries me about his language - he uses his own name to refer to his older brother. Is this significant?

Thanks to you all - I can't tell you how good it is to talk and have some input.

Hi - I have only skim read all the answers but I am very interested as I see some similarities to my DS1 who has a confirmed dx of autism (just autism as he was too young when diagnosed 3.6 to have any idea where he would end up on the spectrum). He can say a large number of single words, some 2-3 word phrases and very occasionally a sentence - usually starting with 'I' which we think is great for an ASD child. We are monolingual but we would never consider a second language given his difficulties with his native language - as Homsa said, for an ASD child, it is like learning a foreign language. If I had to learn Mandarin Chinese, I think I would get mixed up if someone started me on Cantonese at the same time. But like I say, we have a confirmed DX of autism.

Thanks cyber - so what is life like with DS1? How severe is his autism? As far as I can see, autism isn't ruled out; hopefully, the next lot of tests will get us nearer to a diagnosis.

Realistically, there is no chance of a monolingual life where we live. The idea of moving is horrendous but a possibility, if it would make a difference to DS2.

How severe ? I think that's the million dollar question. He has just turned four and his language is as described in the last post - very basic but communicative, he doesn't echo or repeat language as some ASD children do. His behavourial problems are minor certainly by ASD standards and he eats and sleeps very well so we consider ourselves lucky in many ways. But I still couldn't really say if he is severe or mild or in between, whatever we take these terms to mean. It's good that your DS likes Something Special and imitates the signs. My DS would never do that as gestures and facial expressions don't mean much to him.

Hi 1066. It sounds like your DS is doing really well! And I totally understand how you feel regarding teaching him your mother tongue, I haven't given up on that dream yet, I still want DS to be bilingual, I've just put it on hold for the moment because I know he couldn't cope.

Also, your situation and mine are different as DH is english and I am not, I can see why you would want to continue speaking in english at home rather than spanish.

Sorry, I hadn't seen your question before ("What sort of things do you do with him at home to support his language?")

It is really difficult to summarise, but I'll try to give you an idea. The sort of things I do with him change over the months depending on what he has learnt, but currently, I am trying to follow the ABA principles to motivate him to learn. What I am doing now is more or less the following:
Nouns: Every week I will teach him two or three new nouns (this is easy for him now but it was hell just 9 months ago) I do this by showing him pictures, using the object, finding a pretend object and playing with it, whatever I can think of.

I test to check if knows the nouns by putting plenty of objects or pictures on a table and asking him to hand me xxx, or point at xxx (making sure not to give him any clues). I also put teddy and dog on the table and ask him to give xxx to dog and yyy to dog. I will then put objects in one room and while we are in the kitchen for example I'll ask him to please get me xxx. I have now started teaching him questions with "WHICH" so I also use the function of the object to see if he has understood, for example, show him a pineapple and a t-shirt and ask him which one do we eat, or picture of a helicopter and car and ask him which one flies,etc.

Every few weeks I start a new "programme", so the types of programmes I have done with him are the "who", "where", "whose". Again you have to make sure he understands, so for example: I took a picture of DH and I, DH was wearking a hat, so I asked him "Who is wearing a hat?", I took pictures of all the rooms in the house and asked him "where do we cook?",etc. When we are eating I'll ask him, "whose place is this?", where are we eating?, etc...

I am also working on me and mine. So for example we play a ball game with DH and DS and ask "Who wants the ball?" and we prompt him to say ME. (He can now do this). He understands "whose" now, so he is now able to say "mine" when needed.

He can now do sorting (classifying things by type, for example: all cars together, all animals together,etc). So on the language front what I did recently is getting him to label the actual group. For example, if I asked him to sort animals and items of clothing, he was great at saying the names of every item, and he could classify them, but he didn't actually know how to call them collectively, so I taught him to say animals, clothes, etc

Verbs: He is doing really well with verbs. I bought a set of pictures which worked really well for this. Using the ABA principles at first to start with worked well. So for example, he loves to be tickled, or to chased, so I prompted him to say tickle, and then tickled him, or to say run and then run after him, then I would show him a picture of someone running, then I would get teddy to run and tickle dog, and I would ask DS, "what is teddy doing?", I can now show him a picture and ask him "What is the girl/boy doing?" and he can reply,etc.

Adjectives: I started with big and small which is easy to demonstrate, I got a HUGE horse and a tiny horse, then showed pictures of a big car and a small car, etc... Then dirty /clean, again showed him over and over identical cloths, one dirty one clean. Took pictures of the car before cleaning/after cleaning, etc. This I find take a bit more time.

Likes/Dislikes: Get something he likes and doesn't like and get him to understand what "I like xxx" means, or if someone asks him "Do you like xxx" to answer yes or no.

Intraverbal: Lots of songs/phrases where he needs to complete the or fit in a word in the middle I found has helped as well.

Prepositions: The best way to teach DS this is by playing, for example, I tied a couple of chairs with a lose rope and taught him to throw a ball under/over the rope. Pictures also work.

It is a bit tough to write it all down, but I think you get the idea with what I have written above.
(sorry it was so long!) Good Luck!

great post there TinySocks, very useful for me! I've done most of this stuff with DS, but given me some ideas for rest of it.

Have you looked at the Language/Bilingualism Group? I do have a friend who is bringing up her DD bilingual and although there are no concerns about her language or her development, it has been a lot harder than she expected - I think we all expect that children just naturally soak up 2 languages. There are some discussions on the Language/Bilingualism group about what these unexpected problems and issues are. Obviously you need to consider seriously whether it is ASD but also think about other explanations?

We are monolingual but we would never consider a second language given his difficulties with his native language - as Homsa said, for an ASD child, it is like learning a foreign language. If I had to learn Mandarin Chinese, I think I would get mixed up if someone started me on Cantonese at the same time.

Cyber, your comment above is fair enough. Of course i would not advocate introducing a language just for the hell of it! What I am not happy with is the idea of denying/minimising a child's access to a language that forms an integral part of the community around him.

I have seen many families get into dreadful messes by doing this and it breaks my heart.

I think that's right and bilingualism is a great advantage and privilige, but if Spanish is the main language of the culture and community ( although there is also Galician) what else can you do if the problem is as serious as autism ? Not that we know that's the problem for the OP, it's just a possibility. My friend's DD's english speaking grandparents keep moaning about her english being so 'delayed'. They should meet my DS, the DD is just a civilian when it comes to speech delay

Ah Cyber

If there are problems in one language then of course they wil lexist in another but trying to shield a child from them serves no purpose.

I have been working with a terrific family with a child with complex SN. They have been in Wales and managed 9they are monolingual) and now have moved to the continent. As the lovely mother said to me 'Yes, we know he will have a hard time understanding everything but that would have been the case had we not moved two miles from where he was born'

My dh works abroad and I remain mostly in Wales. That is because i want my children educated through the medium of Welsh. As my daughter is bilingual anyway, I am worried about her losing her Welsh input, as a minority language.

It can be done though, my sisters and I grew up as fluent Welsh speakers on a tiny coral island in the Pacific. Never even spoke Welsh to anyone but my father really until 18 but now I speak little apart fro Welsh.

TinySocks - I am inspired, thank you.

Cyber - no, I haven't looked at the bilingual group - will meander on over there, too. I have been so caught up with the autism, speech and language delay/disorder and general life and work that other things do get put to one side. Yes, DS1 has struggled with the languages - it isn't easy.

Good night all and many thanks for your stories - I feel considerably less isolated.

Hi 1066andallthat, nothing useful to add, other than that I know how you feel! My DD has a speech / language disorder and we live in France. She goes to French school, but sees an EMT speech therapist. We've also struggled with the whole two languages / one language dilemma, and eventually decided that so long as she's happy in French school, she might as well stay there. Speaking French at home is not really an option. Yes, DH and I both speak fluent French but it doesn't feel right or natural to speak it at home. Have looked into studies of SLD and bilingualism, and most seem to agree that there isn't any fixed evidence either way. Anyway, nice to share experiences with other people who know what you are going through!

Oh, Brioche, that makes me feel better. I have gathered from all the research I've been doing that the jury is out but as the parent taking the decision, it makes it a really difficult one. The therapists here all make out that monolingualism is the solution. A bit bizarre given that this is a bilingual area. They clearly find my need to speak English even odder - there are times when I feel like a voice in the wilderness.

Sadly, DS2 isn't particularly happy at school, whereas he is at home - can be hard work but sparkly. He has the nicest of giggles .

Can I ask how your DD was diagnosed and how old she is.

without going into a long history of my Ds (as I was just off to bed!) he has a huge language delay and also for a while suspected autism although that now seems to not be the case. I am english & live in Potugal & Ds is at portuguese school.
I was told by different specialists to continue with both languages & others to stick with one but I felt that as I had always spoken english to him from birth & don't have completely fluent, perfect portuguese I should just stick with the english & obviously he gets the other language at school, also with DH, tv etc. It's only really this last year that his speech is intelligible to strangers (& still not always) but I do believe that switching to just 1 language when his delay became very obvious at age 3 wouldn't necessarily have made his language aquisition any easier or faster than it has been. And of course now he has the huge asset of speaking 2 languages & all the learning skills that that brings with it.
If you feel really strongly that your relationship with him should be in english 1066 (& it always has been so far?) then I would keep up with the english at home & let the school take care of the spanish.

Thanks, wads.

Yes, I have always used English with my DSs, much to some puzzlement here. Although I speak Spanish to a good level, it is simply not the same as my English - I can sing, tell stories and be me in English; in Spanish, there is something missing; probably a richness of language and culture.

When you get a moment, can you tell me more about your DS? Is he older than mine? When did they discard the autism-diagnosis? How has he coped at school?

Hi 1066, my DD is nearly 4. We took her to a speech therapist not long after she started school as she just seemd to be off in her own little world a lot of the time. We had assumed that it was just because she was bilingual, that she was a bit delayed. Wasn't until I really started listening to how much the other kids were saying at age 3 that I realised she was quite behind and the therapist pointed out that she has a big receptive delay, so often I thought she was just being a bit naughty and ignoring me when I asked her to do things, but actually wasn't understanding what I was saying half the time! Now I can see she's really quite behind and I have all the usual guilt for leaving it quite a long time! She seems to like her school, but the teachers don't really know what to do with her as she doesn't really do any work unless someone is alongside her all the time, getting her to concentrate. I do what I can with her during the day but it's tricky as I also have a 9 month old DS who's crawling all over the place. Wads, I also would love to hear about your DS. I've only just started finding out about all this and it's a bit daunting sometimes!

ok a bit more about DS. He's now 7 was a premmie & low birth weight but never had any health probs. We noticed his language delay first but now looking back & comparing him with my DD's who came later he had lots of other issues - sensory & motor amongst others. He started to see a developmental specialist when he was 3 but I took an instant dislike to her & altho' we continued to see her for another 3 years, mainly through lack of choice & because she could open doors for us in areas like school support, we never agreed with her Aspergers/HFA diagnosis. Neither did Ds's speech therapist, sensory therapist or support teacher. He's had school support for nearly 4 years now & is currently ( & amazingly!!) keeping up with colleagues in year 1. His current support is 4 afternoons a week.
WE've since switched dr's & his diagnosis is DAMP - deficiency in attention, motor skills & perception along with his obvious speech probs. He still has weekly speech therapy & will need it for a long time as he has real pronunciation difficulties, along with various other things. He also did 2 years of riding therapy & now attends a "normal" riding club on Saturdays & also did 3 years of sensory integration therapy.
With hindsight I think some of his early anti-socail behaviour that make me think it could be autism were partly due to massive frustration at not being able to communicate because of language difficulties, but I still believe that I made the right choice in continuing with both languages & that the long term benefits will prove me right - anyway as I didn't do it any other way we'll never know!!!
Ds has come on leaps & bounds but is still very immature compared to his peers. He has been lucky to have the same classmates since age 4 who all know & like him, & are happy to look out for him & help him along.
Ok now I can smell dinner burning! I'll try to come back later

so just to add that it has taken me years to get to the point where I don't daily stress about what will happen to Ds in the future, should I have done things differently etc etc. And of course I still have those days - the 1st day I had to "abandon" him in the playground 30 mins before school started as I had to be at work, I was sick to my stomach about how he would cope. Of course he was fine.
Anyway 1066 you should go with your gut &, as my mother told me early on (thanks mum xx!) accept all the help, support, therapy you can get. Boa sorte

Daunting and overwhelming are definitely some of the key words, some of the time, Brioche.

Yes, DS2 sounds quite similar to your DD in terms of needing one-on-one to keep him on task. But, then, he also resists direction - he had passive resistance down to a fine art - sitting under the table, lying down and his "No" has always been very clear. He has recently improved and suddenly is into age appropriate activities like sticker books and books. He only goes to school in the mornings, as he is a happier soul at home and I get time with him, this way. At home, I let him join in - have been told I am too liberal.

Guilt - being a lapsed-Catholic - I just took that as part of being a parent. No, it is hard but MN helps and lets be honest, we do our best and that is all anyone can do.

DS2's school is quite old-fashioned but they have got on top of the help - his main-class teacher now has a TA. DS2 has twice weekly sessions with a language specialist and extra time with two or three other teachers. He is very at home on the computer.

Thanks Wad - yes, it is similar here - DS2's schoolmates are very supportive. He seems quite popular - a young rebel figure and indeed, it is sometimes like "Cheers" when we arrive, they all chorus his name.

He doesn't appear to have any additional physical problems but we are at the hospital this week to start tests. The initial team were very helpful in getting additional support but their report was so at odds with the child I have at home, it shook me to the core - could I have missed that big a problem? Then, his English is so much better than his Spanish or Galician and they still wanted me to drop it.

Know what you mean about the future - I think things may settle if we get some sort of diagnosis and on that, decide to stay or not.

Thanks again to you all - - much appreciated.

Morning - Brioche - just seen you on the other thread. You were up early! A quick offer: would you like my copy of Hanen? I don't tend to hang onto books, so I am looking to rehome it, if you'd like it.

Bump (was that my first bump?)Hi all, had an email this week about SLI and multilingual households and naturally though of you all.

Firstly I've taken Moondog up on her offer and to quote her and secondly, to save me reading everything again, did we come up with any books specifically aimed at this subject? It is partly covered in Debbie Feit's parent guide. here is my link, in case Moondog would like me to edit anything.

sunshinetc.blogspot.com/2008/05/plea-for-information-on-specific.html

1066 yes, I'd love it!
Also yes, DD was up at 4.30 this morning! Having trouble with her at the moment, not wanting to go to bed and waking up really early. Think it's all the extra daylight. Thanks TC - really enjoy reading your blog. Your DS is a bit older than mine so I feel that you're a little bit further down the road and it's SO reassuring to know that DD is not alone!! Will look into the Debbie Feit.

We are having the same problem with bedtime DB, my DH is not amused!

Oooh - sleep - feel for you both. Mind you, my two and the cat always migrate - four in a King-size bed is OK but when they all try to get in a single with me, it is not so good .
Brioche, do you want to email me: catherine ann 1966 @ yahoo.es (there are no spaces in the address, just run it all together) and I'll get the book and dvd in the post.
Tclanger - any replies on your blog about SLI and multilinguals? Will email you through it as very interested in the ICAN two-day assessment, but have a feeling it will be beyond my finances.

I'm happy to stand by that T.
As i said, there may be problems dealing with two languages but in these cases there will invariably be problems dealing with just the one anyway.

Thanks moondog

I've added a couple of links to that post also.

1066, I've just sent you an email.

Thanks Bri, will look out for it

Hi Brioch, haven't received it. I need to sign up for cat on here, please could you send it via the email address on blog. Will sort out CAT later when DS isn't caterwauking to get on computer

Hi TC, had actually sent an email to 1066...but I'll also email you the study I sent to her about multilingual kids with SLI. You might be able to pass it on to other people who get in touch with you via your blog. It's kind of technical (had to look up quite a few of the terms myself) but it's also interesting. However, might not get a chance to do it tonight as I'm out to dinner with the girls!

Phew, glad you didn't think I was being rude. yes please that would be fab, I know at least one person, who would love it. No rush tho. have a good night out.

Hi Brioche,

I actually quoted it today when yet another person suggested I spoke more Spanish at home - ah, it felt good to say: "That is a valid point unless you consider ......" and watch someone back down .