i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

i better go get dd up
my pc has an echo

(.)(.)

(.)(.)

(.)(.)

<>

ps pc still playing up

ps pc still playing up

ps pc still playing up

ps pc still playing up

ps pc still playing up

fab tune shoes

hey Harley

HEY FIO

hey shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

2shoes

I am sending vibes to this thread
<<<<<<<<<<<be full>>>>>>>>

sheik i was drawn to her body language in the wedding picture aswell.....

only 41 posts to go

I really didn't want to jump into this thread because I don't feel I can legitimately comment on looking after a child who is disabled

However, I feel compelled to comment on that picture in the middle - look at JH's body language as she's holding her daughter - that says more to me than any of the words of the article about how she feels about Immie. It is such a contrived image - she is almost tentatively holding her, as if she wants to keep her distance.

The people I feel most sorry for in all of this is her other 2 children - I just hope they can live up to their parents' expectations.

PipinJo

I'm sorry I misunderstood you, I had hoped . . . . . my mistake.

As you said earlier your friend said that there was no emotionhal involvement in her work. I couldn't do that, I do what I do in major paret precisely becasue there is emotional involvement, deep emotional involvement.

She and I are just different, she done what she does for 17 years and I've done what I do for 15 years.

However her responce is one of the two prime reasons we have never accepted or saught any form of respite which meant the kids being moved from their own home. For us, we simply don't think that's 'fair' to the kids and if we were unable to manage without it we would take that as indicating that the proper services are not being put in in the first place. In fact we had no respite of any kind before the kids were about 9 or 10. After that we used the respite budget to 'lighten our load' in other ways so we had more time and energy to spend with the kids.

jonkat

Jonkat,

I was apologising on your behalf for what you said

...not to you.

My friend here now whom like yourself has not 'given birth to' but has spent 17 years devoting her life to supporting sn's thinks you need to get a grip and get into the real world.

for you H

thats better found some headphones that work

found it

Shadow of the Day, my dear.
I really do know too much useless info.

what is the vid where chester is in the bathroom showing his tats then ends up in a warzone?

Chester at his best.
Love this song.

james hetfields voice is so brilliant

yes..blonde suits him.

try this

I lurve Chester. He's fab but I prefer him blonde.

ooh 2shoes metallica might be playing here september

i love linkin park

that is goood tm

oh god linkin park rockkkkkkkkkkkk!

lol tm i have that on my ipod right now
too freaky

with their bodys i will forgive as long as they play topless

lol...oops sorry!

Don't tell her that Mamazon!! She'll be a pile of goo on the floor!

for you shoes

sorry to post on here but cant find you anywhere else x x

I know!! All hope is lost! Golf is just plain wrong!

lol have you stopped that vid at 24 seconds in?

Shadows gives you a kiss lol

i think hareley is lost

pc sadley i read in kerrang that they are still playing golf

yurt1

Yes, The Mail on Sunday article was an abridged extract of her book. Not an article.

The important bit is that it was, as you correctly say, abridged, i.e her words but not ALL her words and therefore open to be spun in any way the editor wished to spin it.

There is only one way to read "all Julia's own words", read the book.

jonkat

blu im not sure we should have any more animals. although I do not appear to have the ability to resist.

<<<<<picks herself of floor>>>>>>>>

Are you me, 2shoes?

spooky

shoes...have you seen harley?

Just to distract you Shoes....DROOL!!

i am talcy
do you like sn topic. tidy in here isn't it

oooh I might do that
trouble is she can only use pc with swiches.

hey 2shoes found you ...been looking for you x

you good yeah!

or you could sign her up

here

wannabe - get a guinea pig. much easier to look after than rabbits. And they squeak in such a pleasing way. Rabbits just destroy their hutch with gnawing.

no way. it would have to be a staff and all that traing.....yikes.

dh has tropical fish and it was enough that he had a bag of live bloodworm in my fridge for three days.

the mice aren't my favourate part i must admit.

the ones he has now are ok. he used to have one that wouold only strike feed, you actually had to wriggle the mouse about to make out it was alive or teh snake wouldn't feed.

We keep the mice in a plastic container with a bright red lid.
the DC's know exactly what they are inside it.

they have been bought up around them as my brother has always had them so they aren't unusual to them

get her a puppy 2shoes, go on you know you want to .

wow there is a funny god man on the side of the screen

we had a staff
had to rehome as dd was scared
shame she loves dogs now

there's no way I could have a snake. I couldn't handle the frozen mice in my freezer <shudder>. Imagine sending ds in to get out some chicken nuggets and ... .

ds wants a rabbit though

i have 3 here at the moment. they are my brothers, im watching them while he decorates.
one of his females is pregnant so i will be getting one once they are born.

I used to have a lizzard but had to rehome him when ds was younger, he kept pulling at him and he was getting too stressed

Ds adores teh snakes though and he is old enough now and been around them long enough to know how to treat them.

i just would love to stroke on. to see how it feels

I bet you don't get burglars Mamazon!

when I lived in south africa we had a cobra in our back garden. I wasn't in any hurry to touch that.

you have a snake

come to mine then 2shoes.

i woukd love to touch a snake

Hey,

You have all stopped being rude and insulting based on no personal knowledge.

Well done

Consider your legs pulled

DS had some man letting them touch cockroaches in his school! And a millipede, a tree frog, a stick insect and a snake.

I have one on my hairline on my kneck.

Its tiny and you can't even see it unless i have my hair up and your really looking.

its my Grandads initials.

the head must be agony. there is no flesh there at all.
my kneck wasn't too bad as the skin where i have it is quite thick

dd had footballers at her school yesterday.
Brighton and hove albion

i have sports relief on too, i keep getting someting in my eye

you are brave

i read in one of ds's mags about this metal bloke who had a tat on his head. he has now grown his hair, but said it will be a shock for the people in the old folks home when he is old

yes mine is really slow too.

so am flitting between mn and sport relief on tv as dh is out so im home alone.

i was the first in my family to get one....now they all have them.
my younger brother is covered on them now, though nothing quite as beautifull as Mr shadows.

the one i want after my ankle will have to wait until next summer.
Its a big vine that runs from my knee to my under arm.

it will take about 15 hours so will take a good couple of months to complete (you need to allow healing time between work)
and is gonna cost a small fortune....though thankfully my artist is a friend now and i get a discount because i always have customised designs and give him the copyright and permission to use the photo's

is anyone elses mn going r eally slow

<<<shudders at the thought of having a tat>>>>.

i am hoping ds will have some.

You would like my younger half brother 2shoes. He just loves tats and his top half of his body and his arms are covered in them. It fascinates me to be honest and they are quite beautiful too.

mamazon the lovely mr sahdows has it on his lovely tum

check my profile
i wouldn't go that far though

hey mamazon

what a short list....

keep going

subtle hint tho

feed me their CSC number and I might be able to help ease them out

ooh very punk, i like it!

would look excellent as a tramp stamp (across the base of the spine - above the bum)

Cor! My ds has just seen that and thinks it is really cool!

this thread makes me think of the late great ian druary song

I must be a wimp 2shoes, have never felt brave enough to have a tat done.

this

at the moment I have one in mind will find a pic hang on

To be blunt. Givemenosleep

There's the rub

She had to be supermunm or you would all slag her out

Oh gosh

post deletion here I come.

stop putting it off.

actually yes, put it off. because as soon as you get one the addiction will start, you too will end up going back for more and more and more and more and more and.... you get the idea lol

what would youhave done and where?

ouch that will hurt.i want to get one done on next big birthday

talies - i often felt i wasn't coping very well. I have never ever thought of harming one single hair on his head though. i think JH may very well have been suffering from PND at the point she describes these feelings. Imogen's problems exasperated this i fear.

I and everyon e else on here will agree with you about the state of support provision for families living with an SN child.
i am certina that a great number will also agree that there are some pretty oncompetent social workers out there. there are also bad Dr's/nurses/teachers/policemen/firemen/paramedics.....are you getting the idea?

but anyway - i am putting this issue to bed now.

2shoes i do indeed. I adore his Tats. i have had a new one designed today.
it will kill me to get done though as it goes right over my ankle bone.
think i will have to get it done at the end of the month...i can build up my courage between now and then lol

all power to you give me sleep now.

sleep would be good....

But what made her nearly crack? Lack of sleep? Well, not much more than any parent of a new baby.

Fighting for a dx? No, not at all.
Fighting for suitable schooling/ housing equipment? No.
Experiencing physical abuse daily from her child? No.

So I guess that's why it's hard to feel sympathy. She wasn't pushed to the brink by having a child with SN (ie it wasn't the needs that did it); it was the horror and disgust of having an SN child.

And for those of us that have to fight for everything, the idea of a disposable baby probably seems just a tad callous.

where did she go?

mamazon you must like it...all those tats

OK Mamzon lets draw the line,

Personally and of course since abuse is totally OK on this list, Most SW I have met are undertrained underqualified and complete crap at their jobs (I can evidence this if you like). There are also some really competant people (Evidence this too).

Mamazon, did we not as a society place on you a completly unreasonable expectation.

So you went on 5 hours a day of sleep, that makes you a hero, that society placed your child at such risk because of the stress you were under says a lot about society and it is not a good thing to say.

Of course you and all the other people on here are good parents but had you cracked, as JH nearly did, would that have been because they were bad people or because society has it's priorities all wrong.

my pc froze
not sure.
do you like my pic on msn

anyway - 2shoes.
you gonna meet me for coffee then?

mamazon are you around?

Almost all my friends and family thought I shouldn't have kept J. This was before he was even born. They thought that I was too young, that I was throwing my career away (I was still at uni), that I didn't get the reality of having a child.

I think it's fair to say that I didn't get the reality of a child, but who does until they have one? I certainly didn't get the reality of having a SN child, but I think that the same applies.

At times, my life feels horrific. Sometimes I feel like everything is too much, but I do what most of us on here do: I whinge/ rant a bit, have a fag and/ or some wine (if J's in bed!) and get on with it. Because, at the end of the day, it's not J's fault he has SN, and life is harder for him than it is for me. I'm responsible for keeping him safe, for fighting for him, for trying to make him happy. Sometimes that fight feels like too much, but that's what you have to do for your children.

What I find so abhorrent about this story is not that the woman gave her baby away (I think that that in itself could be seen as a sign of love, to give a baby away if you know that you can't look after it and it will have a better life elsewhere).

It's WHY she gave her away. Not because she couldn't cope with another baby (because she had more), but because she didn't want THAT baby. It didn't fit in with her perfect world. Didn't match with the designer furniture.

But to profit from having made that decision? To tell the world that you basically see your child as a 'thing'? To admit that, without even trying or going through what most parents would willingly put up with for their children, on the basis that it's a parent's job to fight for and care for their child, she just discarded her like an unwanted toy? Makes me feel very very sad and confused.

Thank god for Tania.

You can style yourself as satan if you want Taliesin. I don't see it that way myself. I am just a bit surprised that on such a sensitive topic as the JH book, on a established community board that's here to support parents with children with SN, you and jonkat still don't seem to understand why many people are wary of you.
Your postings are still quite gnomic and that's fine if that's how you prefer it, you don't have to tell us anything much about you (although I think other posters on here were well within their rights to wonder what brought you to this thread on this site). But you honestly cannot expect people to be warmly trusting of a new poster when so much of what he posts is so obscurely phrased.

So the person who made that comment to you Jonkat asked all the people in the room "which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now" and you just forgot to put quotation marks and explain that this is one of the horrific comments parents like us hear daily?

you will forgive me for wondering why you would be so careless given the obviouse offence such a statement would make.

It is true that JOnkat has tried to bait me throught this thread.
i think i am seen as an easy target because of my work background.
it seems that as my DS only has Autism i cannot possibly know what JH went through.

this is true. I spent the first 5 years of his life not sleeping for more than 4 hours in every 24, often going for up to 72 hours without closing my eyes at all.
I sat and cried night after night.
I strapped him into his car seat, shut teh door then dropped to teh ground and sat crying in the middle of Tesco car park.

I would collect him from school each day early and from a seperate door in order to protect the Nt children's parents having to see him so as to prevent them getting a petition together to remove him.

feeling the agonising pain of an ectopic pregnancy tinged with relief as i was unsure how on earth i could cope with another child. and teh guilt that caused was immense.

It is very easy to judge a person from the few posts you see on one thread.
It is even easier to assume you know that person because you have an idea of their career path.

Sadly when you come onto a forum like MN and in particular the SN boards you realise that behind every screen name there is a story.
it may take you a while to leanr peoples stories, you may never really know the entire picture because people are fearfull of giving out too much information.
But i would suggest that before you make judgments of a person here you maybe research teh person's name (as Yurt did with Talies) in order to discover a little bit of the back story.

You can say the same about us and JH. we should look into her a little more before we judge.
I did.
My initial feeling was one of sympathy and pity, i felt so sorry for her to have had to reach a point where she could no longer cope with her daughter and had to have her placed in care.
It wasn't until i looked into this woman further i found that i really disliked teh way she spoke about her child.

I don;'t know JH or her partner. I am sure that they are very nice people. but i am afraid yes i do feel she has a part of her soul missing which enables her to speak of her daughter the way she does.
Thankfully Imogen will never need to know what her mother thinks of her, but sadly her sisters will.

Anyway, i am now rambling. this thread is long and cyclical.
I shall try very hard to make this my final post here.

Jonkat, Talies - if you wish to speak with me regarding my proffession or my knowledge of the Childrens act then by all means start a thread, in chat or legal, and i shall answer you there.

Marina

I hope you have also noted that i have tried to stay issue based and ended up feeling like I am satan.

When someone on here, who has, (I didn't realise at the time) met me and my family then chose to say they felt i was trustworthy, they were slagged out too.

I almost feel ashamed to be a SN parent but for reasons some might be uncomfortable with...

I can't read any more positive interpretation into that remark either, even with jonkat's explanation.

I know, it was cut and pasted with such care yurt real thought went into how to contextualise it appropriately.

It still reads to me as if s/he thinks that all parents think like that anyway, which is almost as bad.

Apparently it was our fault for not understanding it was a quote marina.

Then you should have made it much clearer in your original post on the matter...given the contentiousness of the phrase and the context in which you were posting

Taliesintraction

When I became a parent I took on the responsibility to do the very best I possibly could for my kids, that's exactly what Julia has done.

I admire her.

jonkat

marina

Can I refer you to later posts in which I made it perfectly clear that I was quoting other people, not expressing my own view, as some people here found it hard to notice that no one with that view could or would do what I do with SN kids.

jonakt

OK yurt,

Line under, on your specific query elsewhere Jonkat is the hoover to help you

On Monday the 10th March, in response to PipinJo's post about JH throwing away her breast pump, Jonkat wrote:

"As for the breast pump thing, which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now...........OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me".

I still don't see a subsequent post from jonkat explaining what that remark means on a SN board if it does not mean that parents are being dishonest if they deny ever feeling revulsion for their child.

That sort of post is exactly why most people on MN are distrustful of your motives for posting, jonkat, and you as well Taliesin, for choosing not to see why that remark is so hostile and offensive in its implications.

I am glad jonkat's post is still there, so that people can see it for themselves

Perhaps just independent minds.

Spoke to a friend today who knows nothing about mnet. She does have a disabled child though and rang me to tell me all about some vile, shallow women she'd seen on This Morning yesterday. I had no idea who she was talking about.

yurt1

It's only a waste of my time IF I am talking to closed kinds.

jonkat

Taliesintraction

I'm not sure I like your last posting !!!!



jonkat

jonkat you have repeatedly baited mamazon. You're still here baiting people in you 'protection' of JH- who presumably doesn't use this part of the board (I'm struggling to see why she would tbh).

It's very dull and presumably a waste of your time. I think we've all formed our views of JH. Read plenty of 'in her own words' stuff, seen her on TV. listened to her on radio. Enough for me to decide that I think she's rather missed the point about a) what's important in life and b) what sort of responsibilites you take on when you're a parent.

Whatever. Other people may disagree. It doesn't really matter. If you're only here to defend JH I suspect you could be better off doing something else.

And that's my line under this thread because it is beyond boring now.

but you did seem to think us biological parenst woudl be revolted by 'what we had produced'
Thats rather hideous. And not a good start on any board.

needmorecoffee

Thanks for that.

I am in fact a fulltime fostercarer, 24x7, I have 2 SN kids, and have had them for 15 years. They are the most wonderful kids I could ever hope for. Kind, loving, gentle and Oh so terribly vulnerable.

jonkat

Oh and Jonkat is neither male or female, not relevant here.

One of my daughters MSN says she is a "gentically modified hoover" just think of him like that.....

yurt1

I'm not sure why you object to JH receiving support here but for me, I'll continue to support her in any arena in which she is in need of support, especially one in which she is being very unfairly attacked on the basis of very little knowledge and the facts are boeing 'overlooked' although I've also read some very thoughtful responces to her here.

I'm not at all sure it behoves any of us to attempt to dictate how anyone should either offer or recieve support.

Surely those are highly personal matters to each of us.

Please note, I am not attacking anyone personally, nor the board in general, so I'm afraid it's a case of if the caps fits . . .

jonkat

Totalchaos,

Sorry,

However, at various posts in this thread it has been suggested that I am a paed, a social worker everything bar a toilet cleaner.

Those sugestions have then been followed, next sentance by a slag out of the profesion mentioned.

Therfore I have been and still am quite nervous of spilling all the beans.

But yes I am the parent of a child with SN

NMC- yes Jonkat is a fosterer of children with SN. Also appears to be male according to Talies.

<yurt reminds herself to preview messages where she's being pedantic>

this thread needs to end

this thread needs to end

<Pedant alert> The Mail on Sunday article was an abridged extract of her book. Not an article. So presumably all Julia's own words.

I thought you were a part time fosterer? Must have missed that.
Friend of mine does short term and respite fostering for SN kids. She told me she has no idea what it feels like inside when its your own child cos there's no emotional involvment. Told me to get dd adopted

this is going round and round in pointless and aggravating circles.

Talies - had your first posts said you were a parent to a child with SN, rather than deliberately cultivating an aura of mystery, I think you would have been met with a friendlier reception on here.

so mr t how is the weather where you are?

Does Julia Hollander come here to gain support? No. Perhaps you could support her in other more useful ways??

I'm not sure she'd have that much to share on here as she hasn't had to do things like fight for disabled facilities grants (mine was refused today). She decided she wasn't up to it.

I spent last night in a 4 star hotel (paid for by work). Nice swim in the pool, lovely dinner, pleasant company.

I recommend real life over coming on a board purely to bait regular member. Far better for one's health.

Yeah 2 shoes

I thought this was calming down....

oh ffs.

needmorecoffee

You're right, I'm sure Julia could post here however, given the highly personal attacks on her I think she's wise not to.

BTW, I am an'SN' person, you may have missed the posting where I said so.

In the mean time, while Julia is being, as I see it, attacked, on the basis on nothing more than a couple of highly edited newspaper articles I can't see anything wrong in someone who knows all the people involved and the situation offering her support in her absense.

jonkat

nmc did you get that man to move his car?

Oh for crying out loud you pair!!!

Pippin I an not sure where this comes from but I can tell you Jonkat does not think that SN kids are "revolting". Neither does he think that all SN parents think that way.

I am not going to say more about Jonkat he is big enough and certainly ugly enough to say that for himself.

As to deleting posts where he said people were lying.

Look people if we took all the personal insult throwing out of this thread it would be about half the size, and many of those personal attacks were directed at myself and Jonkat.

It is not feeling very good for me though.

It seems that anyone can call me anything and get away with it, should I snap and give as good as I get then the post will be deleted.

Typical is the smears of Jonkat about foster carers and money, don't not tell the truth now.

It was said on here that Jonkat only has SN kids for the cash and that s/he gets a tidy pot of money for doing so.

If it were true that foster care is money for old rope why is the country not overun with Tanias and Jonkats.

Why at last estimate was there an 11,000 shortfall in foster care families in the UK if it's such a good job and such easy money.

But Pipin on the personal level, don't ever feel any guilt or beat yourself up about your kids.

I can only speak for myself but my SN child is my pride and joy, just like my other children, and I rejoice in what he can do not grieve for what he cannot.

and the comment about finding one's child revolting made me feel physically sick.

well, surely she can post? I find it rather creepy to be honest when non-SN people hang out here, or social workers or what have you.
It puts me off posting and getting support for my child who i look after 24 hours aday.

yurt1

You're right I'm not seeking support here.

In answer to your question though I am posting here to offer support to the mother of a child with SN, Julia Hollander.

jonkat

PipinJo

I am so glad you're sorry, apology accepted.

For me, that marks the end of issue ?

jonkat

Jonka why are you posting on here.

It's a support section for parents of children with SN.

You're not getting support. You're not providing support.

-------------------------------------------<line under it>

lottiejenkins

FYI I have asked MN to advise me as to what word they would like me to use to describe 'knowingly and repeatedly repeating a falsehood', an activity which has taken place on this board but I'll not name those involved in case someone sees that as being a personl attack. For me, I just call it telling the truth.

Perhaps you'd like to offer your advice. I'd like to know as I only know one such word.If there's a more acceptable and accurate alternative then I'd be perfectly happy to use it.

jonkat

Jonkat,

You are right I'm so sorry!

I'm soooooo sorry you said:

"As for the breast pump thing, which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now...........OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me."

That is bang out of order....especially ...yes as you say from you a person without having given birth to a SN child.

As for the money thing.....did it offend you?....it's you that owe the apology, not just to me but everyone who felt upset by what you said, but then I don't want one as you must have a bad taste in your mouth for what you said! I as a mum have had horrendous guilt that did I do something to make my ds have a sn, but for not one second to I feel revolted for what I have produced.... it means nothing I would rather give away all the moon and stars in the world for my ds to be ok and healthy and happy.

Jonkat. The reason your posts were removed (and i was one of those who complained} were because you were accusing other mn's of being liars!! I am glad your posts were removed.. MN's headquarters obviously know which posts to delete and which not too!!

PipinJo,

I resonded to your personal attack on me and my character and MN have deleted my posting. I have complained about your attack on me to MNHQ but, regretably, your posting continues to be displayed.

In your posting you said that I am "just out to make a £££ as its good money" so I think it fair that I tell you a little about myself and my financial status.

I am financially independant by which I mean that I do not need any more money for the rest of my life and my assets will fully secure all my kids, SN or otherwise, for the duration of their lives such that they will not need money from any other source, they will all be as financiaLLY independant as I am, despite the huge costs of SN care.

That being the case, which you did not know when you attacked me, it is absurd to suggest that I'd choose to lead the life of an SN 'parent' for the sake of adding a fostering allowance to my income.

Please, one and all, remember that I did not bring money into this thread, I find it rather distastful in fact, and please also remember that am not 'bragging' in any way, I am responding to a slur which I find exceptionally unpleasant.

What I do, I do for the kids.

I hope you can find the grace to offer me an apology.

jonkat

FioFio,

Just to clarify for you and everyone here, I do not currently write on any other SN forum and, to the best of my memory, I never have.

jonkat

thankyou mn hq

Am so glad MN have delted those unpleasent and unnecesary posts!!

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Hi pipin,

Yes I have no idea what it is like to be you.

I have however had rather a lot of experience of scraping with LEA's, Health Authority and feeling sometimes that we meet childrens needs despite rather than with professional intervention and help. You are not alone in that.

I am sorry if you think it feels like i am preaching it's not what I am trying to do

Now, Lets agree we will not always agree, dump this bloody JH issue and actually get on to something else.

Guys,

I've done trying to explain to certain people on here about how it really is for us...it's to aggressive and bad energy we have enough to deal with on a daily basis....I think it's best we ignore people who don't understand how we feel about our lovely dc....I'm not giving it a second glance now and hopefully can support and get support as usual on here on other threads {smile]

As I say its publicity for the book all this...weather good or bad it is getting the attention, which I hope the book does die of death to be honest as it does not reflect one second of my experience of having a dc with sn.

Talies, Well to say at some point in the middle of the night....oh it is disgusting..am I the only one to think this?!?...please don't go on about fight ing for children...I have just spent the last year fighting my LEA and gave everything up my job, health and would die for my my ds without a blink of thought....so no I don't feel ashamed...you have no right to say this you have not an idea what I have been through and you will never know, so stop preaching, if Jonkat felt so much about these sn children he would not have said it....it is evil what he said and that is the bottom line of it. I actually agreed with Jonkat if you reread on giving Immie up cause J could not cope.....but I'm sorry we don't have the same thoughts on our dc as J does!

wow thanks mate. i was only curious. i only use this forum and TTR

Sorry not sure about this other thread on news.

Yes I do have an SN child of my own.

I will post more detail about me later if you are curious.

I am pleased that the focus on the telly seems to be more on meeting childrens needs, the dire state of services and how it's those who, like JH force the services hand get support and those who just soldier on get ignored.

I am not posting the name of the other forum because I dont think its fair. People on here use it as I said before. I have used it. I know there are parents from my daughters school who use it. Some of my friends use it. Thats why I think its so sad

Plus I dont think tit for tat is ever helpful

you are right yet again fio(getting a bit of a habit)
it feels like all the good work of the past year is being undone,
(oh did you see my question about the other forum you spoke of)

Actually the thing that has left a nasty taste in my mouth is not the fact people have come on to defend JH and especially Tania as if they know them I understand that. I also understand without question, why people would want to support Tania and feel protective of their 'family' Its the fact they have come from another 'support' forum and have slagged off the 'support' on our forum. Which at the end of the day we do all support one another. The debate surrounding the book, the use of offensive language in the media is a seperate issue and people are right. It has got far too personal

why are you so reluctant to answer the question.
have you a child with sn??
as this is the sn board that is a very normal question.
and if you want to support JH why are you and your mate not posting on the thread in the news topic?

I am not pulling Mamzon apart,

I am saying I don't agree with her thats all.

I have said why I think what I think already.

No disrespect to her/him just we don't agree.

Taliesintraction
you seem to have a awfull lot of opions on people who post on here.
now
howabout temllis us your rl expierence.
what gives you the right to pull Mamazons apart?
so so you have a child with sn??

Well said FioFio,

I wonder if we will all have the same take on "this morning", if my telly survives Jeremy F'in Kyle without my boot going through the screen!

What a load of tosh!!!!!

well that is the whole point of a debate. If everyone agreed with one another there would be no debate

Hi there Mamazon,

This thread might indeed have burnt itself out. But to reiterate I am not debating semantics at all or indeed baiting in any form.

All that I have clearly stated is that I will not condemn JH out of hand.

Maybe if I was in there and up close I might change my mind.

However, two people whose judgement I have grown to trust Tania and Jonkat have a level of contact I do not have and their take is not the same as yours.

I think she reached a different decision to you, you have chosen add the value judgement and say that she was wrong. That is your right, I think you are wrong.

I did explain to yurt yesterday some of the reasoning behind my view which is partly based on my personal experiences, perhaps you should all recognise that your take on this is alse based on your personal experience also.

pipinjo,

dear god,

Where to start.

I was going to to a detailed reply to your riseable remark which yet again says that Jonkat finds SN kids revolting, a notion which is so misinformed that it is now becoming funny.

Your flame of jonkat is exactly that.

I am sure he will come back at you when he gets home from where he has been these last two days.

If you actually knew anything about Jonkat, who he really is, what he really thinks about kids, had you been there in half the fights he has fought for the children he fosters and lots of other children besides, you would feel thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

As it is I am going to say you have taken partial evidence and jumped to the wrong conclusions.

Right guys please let me respond I have just found where I left on Monday....

Jonkat yes hospital was the best place for Immie as she would have been murdered if she spent anytime longer with J. (she said on R&J she wanted to smash her head against the wall) So Jonkat are SS looking after her other kids too as for what she said she is not in sound mind bless her!

As for finding our kids revolting sometime in the night how dare you! I am always being stopped by strangers saying he is the most handsome little boy....but looks or no looks now. A baby is something you love unconditionally...it is only psychopaths or mothers going through a depression to feel like this....which is what I suspect J did.

I and I can vouch for a lot of mums here yes wish our dc didn't always have the symptoms they have and some mums would not change a hair on their body as they are who they are....whoever allowed you to foster sn children were obivous not qualified to do so as your attitude to sn children is not only unprofessional, degrading to them and parents but you are just out to make a £££ as its good money...as I can see no empathy, compasion or caring nature in you....it's you that I find revolting for saying this. It would be good to know which SS took you on....wouldn't they just love to hear what you said!?!

tut tut Jonkat.

yet again you have failed to take the time to read before jumping to conclusions about me.

I don't work in Childrens services.
My field is youth justice. whilst the CA is an underpinning factor of much of my work it is not used or quoted on a daily basis and i don't think i have felt the need to use section 47 on more than a handfull of occasions, usually under teh direction of court.
I have also been a full time carer for 3 years now so i must clearly apologise for not being word perfect

talies - thank you for your message of a good day.

Talies i think you are actually similar in your opinion to the majority of us here...or at least your last few posts would indicate as much. bnut for some reason you seem to wish to debate semantics and presumptions as to the cause of our outrage regarding JH.

Jonkat - you know this family it appears. you seem to have a blind faith in them and can see no wrong in their behaviour. if only we all had a friend like that.
you have persisted in trying to bait me. i hope you found it enjoyable.

i think this thread has run it's course.

Sorry we’ve been slow off the mark on this thread – it’s been a hard one to keep up/ read through. Just to remind people that whilst we encourage discussion and exchange of views, we don’t tolerate personal attacks or deliberate flaming and to please report any posts that cross those boundaries.

Thanks

haha pagwatch that sounds like a brilliant idea

i was very glad to read that last line...

so what is this other forum?

Maybe it does yurt1.

And as I have already said, I would have no truck with the "animal" and other type language.

I am just hesitating to condemn thats all.

I have seen the anguish and terrible guilt. Guilt where she had nothing to be guilty about really.

The mum concerned found just sitting in the ward where her son was often drugged to keep him quiet, others were tied to stop them hitting themselves, so distressing she could not bear to think of her son being there or could she cope with him at home. So she did not go, when she was there she was not able to be herself, one of the most dynamic and cheerful people I ever met, and if her son could do one thing that was pick up on your distress.

He would not have been happy either.

The story does end happily though and her son is not on any ward today.

Fio
Ah. She sounds like my MIL.
Actually I think I may do that when I get older. I am planning facial hair and an aggresive and unpredictable attitude in my next decade.

Actually I would not really understand a mother who found her child in such distressing circumstances that she would not visit. If his circumstances were especially grim I think I would want to ensure that there were moments of relief, however rare.

I would understand the need to reliniquish care but not the decision not to visit. I would feel I needed to see my son to offer the comfort I could when I could.

Actually Talies I don't think anyone would be firing bullets at your friend. It sounds a desperately sad story. I wonder (really I mean) whether your experience with her makes you misinterpret the complaints people have about this book and JH's very public take on what it means to have a disabled child.

see my sil does that
picks fights with people at the next table!

FioFio

"my post just seems to have confused people apart from those who knew what I was talking about"
Ah - that is my life in a line

It is just apparent to me that there are people here who I have never encountered before who have just turned up to stir things up. I find it childish and annoying. I enjoy debating issues with a reasonably consistent community. Of course it ebbs and flows and new members will join but, just like all the tossers who swamped the board to pontificate about madeleine mccann , this just looks to me like people trawling for a fight.
I don't get that. I don't have the time and I don't, frankly, have the ego to prance around to other sites looking for people to argue with.
Weird and small minded IMO. Like picking a fight with people having dinner at the next table.

Yurt thanks for that and sorry as well.

Sorry I am not some exotic Gordon Brown or someone similar in disguise.

I think maybe you are getting caught up the in the semantics there 2 shoes.

The point I was making is that in the normal run of things to abandon a baby would also mean being a touch reckless about their safety.

Let me give an example, many years ago a friend of mine was born. Tragically very soon after birth he contracted meningitis which left him with little speach, possibly blind, very severe Cerebral Palsy and a fair bit else besides.

His mother, now there was a can do person if ever I met one, struggled without any help at all. And a struggle it was too, eventually, as time went on, she arrived at the situation where she could cope no more.

It matters not really how old he was by then or she was, she got to the end of what she could do, that to me is the important bit.

All that was on offer at the time was warehousing, in the local long term mental handicap hospital and I would not grace that ward with any better name than a bloody warehouse. And no that was not the staff's fault, they did the best they could but given the workload and staffing level it was little better than "feed and water the vegetables".

Please get annoyed and offended at that phrase, I meant to convey what the place was like, it made me burning up angry at the time to see human beings treated in such a fashion.

Now, she got so distressed at seeing him there and the conditions there that she could not visit, she found it too traumatic.

So she abandoned him to his fate.

Presumably you would want to condemn her and say she was wrong.

I hope you would not.

The point I am trying to make is that things are often presented to us, especially by the media in very simplified forms of black and white.

The real world is rarely black or white, there is usually some shade of grey.

they have come from another sn support forum though pagwatch. One which some of us regulars actaully use and none of them seem willing to acknowledge that they have called us venomous in a hypocritical sense

anyway i dont really want to stir up any trouble. My post just seems to have confused people apart from those who knew what I was talking about

She did abandon her daughter.
She has written a book which allows me to view her entirely as I see fit.
This is a SN thred. I find it really offensive that anyone would come here and play sarcastic, smart mouth word games over such a difficult issue if they are not regulars. Pretty cheap fuckwittery IMO.
For exactly the same reasons as I would never consider it appropriate to go to a support forum for parents who have in any way relinquished care of a SN child. I think that would be hugely inappropriate and I would not do it.

thestands I wasnt talking about you

For fio info, (and anyone who is interested) I asked for my posts to be deleted MNHQ deleted them at my request, not the other way around.

Talies- it comes up as about the 3rd item if you google Talieinfraction. Other stuff that you have written on the web comes up as well. You need a more common username if you want to remain anon. I did rather like the video of the lorry driving up the snow.

Jamsam no of course I don't routinely google other posters. That would be ridiculous. I dont actually think that Talies is here to receive support. Way back when he started posting in the depths of this thread he played a little game inviting us to guess who he might me, and suggesting we might be shocked/surprised to find out who he was. I googled hoping he'd be a government minister or something exciting (although expecting a regular- which I thought he was for a while), but finding actually he's just a bloke in Wales.

Cat and mouse. If he hadn't dropped little hints that his identity might be quite interesting I wouldn't have bothered looking.

she did abandon. And she also, and I am sure this is a quote, exorcised, to get rid of all 'evidence' of Immmie. I am sure those are quotes formt he book.
Looks like a dictionary definition to me.As quoted below.

Abandon - English Dictionary



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. To cast or drive out; to banish; to expel; to reject.
2. To give up absolutely; to forsake entirely ; to renounce utterly; to relinquish all connection with or concern on; to desert, as a person to whom one owes allegiance or fidelity; to quit; to surrender.
3. Reflexively: To give (one's self) up without attempt at self-control; to yield (one's self) unrestrainedly; -- often in a bad sense.
4. To relinquish all claim to; -- used when an insured person gives up to underwriters all claim to the property covered by a policy, which may remain after loss or damage by a peril insured against.
5. Abandonment; relinquishment.
6. A complete giving up to natural impulses; freedom from artificial constraint; careless freedom or ease.
7. the trait of lacking restraint or control; freedom from inhibition or worry; "she danced with abandon"

Hi everyone I am back off school runs and other tasks.

No, I am not on here to wind things up at all.

(Thanks for finding that website btw yurt I had forgotten about that and will delete it as soon as I can work out how)

To repeat where I started from:

JH has done what she thought was best for Immie. That was the right thing to do.

You are all doing what you feel is best for your kids (presumably), that is a right thing to do.

She has done something different to what many of you have done.

I say "different" many of you say "wrong".

I do not presume to judge, you do, that is your right. I do not agree with you that is my right.

I do wonder that if JH had been surrounded by supportive people and proper support from day one she might have chosen another path. But that is another matter, at the end of the day Immie seems to have done well out of the situation.

Incidentaly, "abandon your baby" is when you stick them in a bag with a blanket and leave them outside the vicar's house. Not when they are in a hospital setting.

I can think of a few other occasions where I have known desperate parents of children, driven to the end of their ability to cope and still being denied services and help have left their child in the district office or respite centre or hospital.

That is not abandonment it is desperation. You condemn them if you like, I will not.

Yes, where people describe other human beings as "animals" (in a pejorative sense) or "incapable of inteligence" I really will come out of my corner spitting and snarling.

That I find very offensive and have and will challenge people who express those views.

Please keep the channels open Mamzon, as I said I am not aiming to wind anyone up. Well not on this thread anyway, and I really enjoy discussion as it is through open mature discussion that progress can be made.

I hope some of the above makes sense to some of you.

Quite, FioFio. I've got some fairly strong opinions on this whole thing but I've not posted them either here or on "the other forum", this whole thing is far too close to the bone for a lot of real people and has got waaaay personal.

Actually, I think it's a shame that JH didn't use forums like this one to do a bit more market research before putting this book out: she seems to have just thought that she would be criticised for her initial decision to foster Imi out. Of course there has been an initial element of that, but the real hostility has mostly stemmed from someone who is fundamentally an NT parent writing a book about the SN experience without really understanding how long-term SN parents relate to their children. Though intellectually I can understand her ignorance, as the parent of a child with a profound learning disability I can't help find her language and current attitude in all the quotes I have read deeply offensive. A little more empathy for the people she purports to be trying to help would have avoided that.

I have reported the post where I have been accused of lying.(very pissed of about that)
I have asked mn hq why people are being allowed to come on the sn topic purely to attack the sn posters.
I have asked fro the reply to be posted on this thread.

Oh sorry Fio I get so confused sometimes DOH!

My mum didn't know about this topic on here and she phoned me this morning about R&J....it is getting everyone's attention. My mum worked in an instution years ago and it was common for young babies like Immie to go in their for life...she said it is not common these days. People are not encoursaged to give there disabled dc up like years ago.....thank god.

jonkat
thnks for calling me a liar.
what else is deciding to leave your baby in hospital if it is not abanding the baby?
I used the word care. I am a carer I look after my dd. I wipe her bump/nose chin clear up sick love her cuddle her and loads of other stuff. that is what I mean by care. not the occasional visit.
why would JH need support on the sn topic?(genuine puzzlement)
as for people with a differnet view. there have been quite a few on here and apart from one(talisman) i respect their views.

crossed posts fio

PipinJo, I dont think that fio's comment was about you

You can comment all you like PipinJo, that isnt what I meant

??I'm just trying to catch up on reading the posts from where I left Fio....am I not allowed to comment that is what I thought this site was about freedom of speech? I use MN all the time to offer and get support! Met couple good friends on here. I don't know Tania or the family? Sorry you feel that way

I was going to leave this alone but I think the few of you who have come on here to cause trouble have forgotten that the 'other' support group is accessed by memebers who use mumsnet aswell. This is all very sad.

You know Tania and the family involved and you feel you need to protect them. I fully understand that. I would feel the same way if it was someone from my community, one of my friends or colleagues or someone who I cared about. Its fine.

I dont think its fine though to come on here and be petty, try to pull induvidual posters apart and to be so personal. People are allowed to have their own opinion from the information that is available to them.

I am actually leaving this debate now but I am also really sad that mnhq allowed this to happen aswell. They seem to delete minor posts but allow an escalation of someone baiting induvidual posters with snide personal attacks because they seem to enjoy the drama. That is the fault of mnhq, not any of us.

My mum said she watched Richard and Judy and said that J said she wanted to smash Immie's head against the wall ..... my mum was horrified and thought all her kids should be put in care and J should have been sterlised to stop her having another child after Immie! That's my mum's words not mine!

Hi guys this is very long now and I was trying to go back to where I last posted two days ago to read from.....it so long I am lost?? I was chatting to Talies then another lady came on and said she knew JH...anyone know what page that is on?

wowzers..this has got well out of hand...

Jonkat, im afraid im going to agree with the others here, you are not helping the thread. I would give up!!

as for the 'one quick google' thing, do you routinely google other posters to find things out about them? how is that support?

Im not going to buy JH's book, im not going to get involved by reading blogs and and watching Richard & Judy. I have a life.

I hope the rest of the SN threads are a bit more, well, ...i was going to say nice, but then again there's nothing wrong with a healthy argument.

I really do have to do some work now!!!these things do not get done on thier own!!

One of the things that upsets me about this situation is that nobody appears to have told JH she COULD look after Immie. Nobody appears to have given her any emotional support or encouragement. She had a toddler (hard work at the best of times) and a severely disabled baby. She was exhausted, possibly suffering from PND, with two very young children to look after. Yet nobody appears to have helped her to think she could at least try for a bit longer. The doctor who gave a dreadful prognosis for Immie (now proved wrong, she shows emotions, recognises people, enjoys things). The vicar who said it wasn't her destiny, but someone else's to care for Immie. Her partner who couldn't cope and suggested killing his daughter, then wouldn't eat the neals in the house.
I wonder, if there had been more support, more people telling JH about how there is always hope, whether she would have got through the desperately dark place she must have felt.

"To knowingly perpetuate an untruth is called lying."

Like suggesting that most families of profoundly disabled babies want to kill them?

Foster care should be a last resort. In most cases it leads to the birth parents having limited (if any) contact with their child. In many cases it leads to a succession of placements.

That bit of the story seems to to have been forgotten.

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

jonkat this a sn support topic.
it supports people who care for people with sn.
so that is not JH.
I would never have heard of this woman but she chose to write a book.
she chose to abandon her 5 month old baby.
she chose to present this as an alternative.
this gives me and anyone else the right to comment.
if she had done all this quietly none of us would ever had heard of her and her dreadful husband.

And actually Talies- hate to be pedantic but this part of the site is to provide support for parents of children with SN.

I don't think you fall into that category.

You seem to be on here purely to wind people up. Or do you have a different motive for posting?

Hardly trawling the web (I don't have time). One quick google - I thought from the little hints you dropped that we might be impressed with who you were that you were a regular.

Think some others have done it from the previous comments.

Hello yurt and good morning all,

Now we see the real level of debate, here.

Trawling the web finding a page I had set up to pull my god daughters leg.

My, you must feel good about yourself.

I think anyone could now understand my reluctance to let some people on here know anything about me.

Parents support site?

Are you having a laugh or what?

Belated best wishes to Mamazon, have a good day in court, if such a thing is possible.

And to use an example here. Whilst I find the way that Tania writes about Immie and the other disabled children she looks after (or is that' her' disabled children- see it gets murky- although I know she has adopted one child) I for example do not like the way a certain foster carer has written about disabled children on this site.

I wouldn't want my child anywhere near someone who thinks that parents are revolted by their disabled children. NOt for an afternoon - let alone for long term care.

But if my child was up for fostering- well I wouldn't have a choice as to who they ended up with would I?

jonkat will you stop baiting mamazon.

Actually in this case I don't agree with Tania. She is also presenting it as an 'alternative' when I think their arrangement - which does work for them- is very unusual.

The foster carers I've met who have disabled children have them for short periods before the children pass for adoption (and that has included a child as disabled as Immie). Or they haven't been as dedicated as Tania.

Foster care means that the family unit is split. Julia herself has said that she is not Immie's mother.

That's not a 'solution' that many parents can stomach.

It might be Julia's but I think presenting it as an easy to access alternative arrangement is very misleading.

Foster care should always be a last resort.

Mamazon

So, you have such a clear understanding of the law that, if you work in Children's Services, you need to read the CA before offering comment on it's most basic tenets.

You feel no need to get it right when offering your advice..........how very professional !!

I'm glad that at last you have admitted that you have "judged" Julia and that on nothing more that newspaper articles, heavily edited. Frankly in your profession you really should know better.

Unless that is you believe everything you read in the papers, including the Daily Mail, about your profession ?

You don't work in Nottingham do you ?

jonkat

oh and if you read the post correctly i was asked if Jh saying that she thought of Imogen as an animal was cause for an assesment under sec 47 of the CA.

What JH is alleged to have said to her GP was that she had had thoughts of killing Imogen.

This would indeed be enough to reffer her to SS for assesment and to get her the help and support she needed.
Instead the GP described her some anti D's and told her that most parents feel like this

I am in court on a personal matter Jonkat.

i was not quoting teh childrens act, i was answering a question. Im afraid i do not feel the need to read it each time i am asked if it applies.

as for the meat - im afraid you lost me love.

I have judged Jh on the information she has provided us with.
Im afraid i have found some of her statements upsetting, obviously you know this woman personally and she must clealry be misrepresneted by her ghost writer?
because you paint a picture of a wonderful caring and compassionate woman, her articles and exceprts from teh book describe a shallow and selfish woman who considered her child to be less worthy than her pfb.

And it is not her decision to place her daughter into care that has guided me to that conclusion

mamazon,

I see your off to court, again, tomorrow.

Perhaps it might help you if I remind you that the phrase in the CA is "At risk of significant harm" not "significant harm or distress being casued"

The words "at risk" acuratley reflect Immie's situation in Julia's own words to her GP.

S47 would then apply.

I'm off for 2 days now so I'll catch up on Friday.

Have fun, Oh and remember to weight Julia carefully before you cook her, you wouldn't want your meat too rare I'm sure.

jonkat

Tania has updated her blog, is good reading (for me as she is saying what I have been saying)

2shoes

I'm here to give JH some support, on the support site, by counterbalancing some of the bigotry I've read here.

Supporting her by telling the truth about her from my personal knowledge of the situation and the people involved.

I don't find anything supportive for JH in the ill informed critisism she's had on this 'support' site.

JH has taken a profoundly brave decision, it's a shame all our minds can't reach as far as hers.

Immie is gorgeous, Tania has no wings and Julia has not abandoned her daughter.

The result is two happy families.

Well done Julia.
Well done Tania.

jonkat

- again I give you Talies

Nope MR it was to Talies Steady on girls.

The person posting on radical social worker about residential care vs fostering was called Rhys as well.

Nice video of an engine in the snow too btw. Although I prefer the ice road or whatever its called. Real hairy handed truckers there.

i fear this has become less of a debate and more of a baiting session to you Talies, which is a shame.
although i have found some of your posts frustrating i enjoy having my view challenged.

Anyway, i am off to court tomorrow (yeap back there again) so i am going to leave you all to it.
I will catch up with the thread tomorrow.

night

yurt?

Are you talking to me?

I don't think I have a dating website.

I need to know

a: if I have one - news to me

B: how do you know......

Please help me.

LOL

No reffering to your child as an animal or implying you think of them as such would not be grounds for a section 47 assesment.

whilst being morally questionable it would not suggest significant harm or distress being casued.

If you were find to treat your child as an animal then yes this would result in an assesment.

As for these views being alleged, i am sure if i had the time or inclination to go searching i could find the quote, but i can't. i do however have a feeling it has been copied onto on of these threads already.

i didn;'t state she was dishonest. My post said that she has inferred that she is speaking on behalf of n parents.
I say so because of her constant comments about most parents feeling the same way.

Was that to me?

I wish this was all in one thread

PLease don't.

Can't you stick to your dating website?

This is real life (rather than an oh so interesting discussion) for most of us.

And no-none of us can ban anyone. And Mnet HQ seem to enjoy these robust discussions. God knows why they give me a headache.

She never said Immie was an animal, she said she FELT like she was looking after and animal, that is very different. The dr said her brain was keeping her alive and that she had no intelligence. How was she supposed to know any different?? She believed what she was told

It was her last resort, she couldn't cope, she was thinking irrationally, how far do you all want to have gone??

If we had heard in the news, mother kills disabled daughter, then it explained for 5 months her child had screamed and fitted and the mother had no support, was exhausted......would the reactions here be any different??

You tell me?

I have a big day tomorrow so i am off to kip now.

Catch you all tomorrow

Yours in parenthood

Hairy handed TT

How could we/I have jonkat banned?

Just a question?

Have you had Jonkat banned for not agreeing with you??

As it does for most people.

Fine JH couldn't cope. Finer she was happy to have someone else call her daughter theirs.

For most people that is a last resort.

And it shouldn't be presented in any other way.

Good on you yurt

It works for you

Foster care should be a last resort.

Not some happy alternative.

With the greatest respect foster carers talk about 'their' chidren.

My disabled son is and always will be my son.

Foster care is not some lovey dovey alternative to me.

So it worked for JH- sow what?

Giving up my son (Which is what she has done with her daiughter) is not. nor ever will be an option for me.

I'd rather walk repeatedly over hot coals than have someone else describe my son as 'theirs'.

Now just lets hang on Mamazon,

I am not at all sure that JH says that how she felt is general.

To me she made it pretty clear that this was how she felt and how she reacted, I am not sure she generalised at all.

Your statement that she was "dishonest" needs some evidence to back it up.

Would you get up off your bum and tell M'lord that JH is dishonest?

Her alleged views about Imi being an "animal" would be grounds for a sec 47 at the least, or not?

I did think that Tinadawns post was very nice. And she made some interesting points. But I still can't change the way I fel about JH. The more I see her, and the R&J programme only confirmed , the more I find her chilling.

It think if a family with a newly diagnosed child read the book, they will either be thinking 'i couldn't do that' or thank god there is another option. If thinking the latter, I think they would be in the minority and all options should be given to them

Most of us never thought to hand our babies/children over to someone else but there are some that will never cope and know that. Why shouldn't they be informed that it can work and they don't have to soldier on regardless

I replied to Tinadawn but it doesn't seemt o have shown up [grrr]

You are right on so many levels TD BUT Jh isn't just being honest about her views during those dark days.
she is infering that WE, the wider SN community feel the same.

that we all have thoughts of murdering our child, that we wish we were brave enough to place our child in care, that our other children are somehow being neglected in order to care for our Sn children.

This is dangerous.

This book may indeed be used by mothers who have just had the DX for their beautifull baby.
this book is wrtten with rose scented ink. It is being touted as teh reality of having a child with Sn and placing t hat child in care.

In fact its not. the reality is quite often very very different.
looked after children will usualy be moved about frequently and can be placed with up to 3/4 homes a year.
It is even harder to place a child with SN in long term care.

I hate to think of parents in teh first stages of grief reading this boko and thinking that this is the easy option, that by placing their child in care they will be ensuring them a life of easy part time parenting.

we are lucky where I live. one of the reasons I would never move. good school, good ss childrens disabilaty team, good holiday play scheme, good rehab.
shame about the shit hospital

Yes people who abandon babies must be desperate or ill.

I was not there and I am not qualified to be the expert.

PS. Glad you had a good SW, don't let go of them, they are not as common as we would all like.

the only time I have felt humbled is ..
talking to my freind who's son had a terminal disability. watching her and her x dh working together to give him the best life possible.
listening to the love in her voice when she spoke about him at his funeral.
then I was humbled.
never about people abandoning babies.

wtf humbled??
tlisman
by the way I am lucky my dd has a briliant SW

Hi Tinadawn

What a refreshing post.

How non judgemental can you be.

Everyone should feel humbled.

2 shoes,

Father a dog?

They never got the case to court......

LOL

tinadawn - well said!!!!

Mamazon

There are social workers and social wa@@@@@.

The sooner the latter can be driven out of the system by the CSC the better.

I have no interest in point scoring.

I am just concerned that in all this JH bashing the need to meet every childs needs is slipping off the radar.

i love his music but wouldn't trust him to father a dog

what has an sn child got to do with MJ?

2 shoes,

Hi,

Fantastic on stage, superb live performer.

Shrewd and beyond, he owns the rolling stones locks stock and.....

Everyone else just works for him.

Even the T shirts on sale were his.

Would I trust him to parent a SN child?

Sorry, I won't say, he has very good lawyers.

syas the woman who was dressed in leopard rpint from head to toe

well i thought you would look fab with purple spkiey hair and red tartan trousers.

and mamazon has met me

mamazon don't let him wind you up.
I know you and you give good advice.
(ans some very bad..)

oh and i have dated footballers, been clubbing with many popstars and attended the wedding of a politician.

but whose scoring points

In which case talies i give in.

I have tried to give you teh benefit of teh doubt, attempted to see things from your PoV but you seem content to just persist with this rather immature point scoring.

Had yoy been around more than five minutes you would know that whilst i am a social worker i work within youth Justice. My experiance of older children with challenging behaviour is quite extense.
I do get a bit about the constant social worker bashing but i really don't take it too seriously. i am the first to get irritated by the system and will condemn any named SW who cocks up.

I am quite open about who i am. i wont hide behind a screen name shouting and pontificating. I am happy to stand by the things i say here and the opinions i put forward.

It is a shame you do not have the same confidence in your views

tell me about mick jagger he is a legend

Ahh poor old Mamazon....

People saying they don't trust the judgement of social workers.

I don't think Justice Munby was over the moon with some SW today either.....

Then again it was open season on Taliesintractions here not too long ago too.

I am sure we are both big enough to cope.

As I said yesterday I am pretty shy about what i do because there is a hit squad on here whose discourse seems to be:

TT is a XYZ which is great cos all XYZ's are (chose one from the random list of bigoted statements)

I mean I cannot even be a truck driver I have to be a "hairy handed truck driver"

Interesting though, because I have worked with older children who challenge apparently I know nothing about loving families who struggle to raise their children. Not that there are bigots here......

But I digress.

To clarify things a bit.

I refuse to condemn JH for leaving her child.

I do not have that right.

I would not however support her in describing Immie as an animal, or rag doll, or other such things.

Not that I saw someone with an "animal" on Richard and Judy.

Then again most people on here seemed pretty cool with the paed having said she would never have any inteligence.

I was not cool with that, it left me cold.

But anyway about me, everyone seems to want to know.

I will confess I once spent an evening in a bar with the Pogues shortly after I had recovered a prominent member of another band from a brothel in Lorient into which he had blundered whilst "confused".

I have also chaufered Mick Jagger.

Does that help?

As an adoptive mother who has taken over he care of children whose birh parents have fel unble to cope with the needs of heir disabled child i find it exceptionally sad to read of the apparant "hate" (that is how it reads to me...not necessarily how it was felt by the writers) hat is pouring out in the direction of a mother who has opened her heart for the world to scrutenise.

Julia Holland is one of many many mothrs ho has felt totally incapable of meeting the needs of a disabled baby and the needs of he rest of her family....that is not a crime it is a fact of life. Julia loves Immogen and always has...the fear, grief, anger and any other emotion she experienced have never taken away from the love.
Just because these other mothers acknowlege they cannot or maybe even do not want to take on the 24/7 care of their children does not take away from the love they have for them.

Knowing that someone else can and will love their child as their child deserves to be loved is not a crime...it is a knowledge that frees them to make the best decision or them and their child...and maybe for the other children in their family.

Immi is loved beyond measure..Tania is a lady wih immense knowledge, love and compassion. Whatever is there to be so woun up about?

Who did Julia write for? Yes maybe for her on therapy, maybe to display the failings in the services available..maybe for other mothers who have made or who are considering a similar decision. I know the birth mothers I have spoken to have had a tough time facing people who know they have given their children up...to know maybe there is someone out there who understands could just help them.

Many of you who have carried on and succeeded in loving, caring for and meeting the needs of your disabled children...that is fantastic, you are doing a very difficult job and doing it well....we walk that road with you. It does not mean it is the only right road...if it is not the right road for someone else that really is OK.

Just because you personally may never have been driven to the extremes of despair to feel negative emotions towards your child does not mean tho experiences are not very very real to others. Just because you have never felt a need to walk away and keep on walking does not mean that some other mother has not had that overwhelming need to do so. Accepting that you just cannot do this...be it afer 10 days 10 weeks 5 months or however long....being sure that your child is taken into formal care and the best solutions made available is the best thing to do!
My first child lived with his parents for 18 months...rarely shown love, rarely cuddled...fed and kept clean at the very best....before the parents were made awre that adption was available to them as an option....from the time he was taken into foster care the family were able to learn to love him but still felt that adption was the best option.
Our second child was discovered to have a genetic disrder, his parents were told when he was 10 days old and they immediately felt they could not care for him and that day he was taken ino care and came to us for adoptin at 6 months...this birth family stayed in touch only by letter.
We went on to adopt a third child whose parents walked outof the delivery suite unale to face the fact their daughter had been born with a devastating genetic syndrome...they have been unabl to maintain any contact.
Our final adopted daughter has ongoing contact with her birth family and with hindsight I believe the SGO would have been a better option for her and her birth parents but was an option that was never explored. I see and hear the anguish of her birth parents in every call, every visit every word. they have never felt they made anything but the right decision, they wish deeply they could have coped but the fact remains that they couldn't...they tried for 7 months and it very nearly destroyed their family...the healing is still ongoing 4 years down the line.
It is easy to condemn someone bcause you do not agree with their way of dealing with things. We are all diferent, have difrent abilities and different ways of coping and dealing and indeed of loving.
I have known families who have stayed together where the needs of none of them are met...where the disabld child is a nuisance, is left out of all the fun sides of life and is not accepted as part of the family...I have tried to help, given some space, taken both disabled child out to give the rest of the family time together,and have taken siblings out to enjoy things the family would never contemplate...I have been told to poke my nose out too!
The fact that Julia has been honest about her dark thoughts her panic and her fear is going to comfort others who find themselves in those black days too. Just because you cannot see it from her point of view...he fact you find those thoughts so abhorent does not stop them xisting and being very normal and even healthy for some others not so able as you!
with love...which seems to have been sadly missing here from what I can see....towards people who maybe need that support you talk about...support not for your point of view bu for theirs!

I felt Richard and Judy was everything bad about Britain today.

Some yank I for one had never heard of gets a huge interview about basically nothing; her celebrity lifestyle and singer husband.

JH Tania and Immie come on and they could not get through the interview quickly enough.

Someone where there were real issues and really pertinent matters and it was all dealt with at in a totally superficial way.

JH did not however appear to have horns and she was sat there with Immy who was plainly not very well.

Shame really as if presented immi as a very quiet passive person which does not quite fit in with the Immie I met.

I would love to have that bloody paed on there when Immie is well and remind him that he said she would have no intelligence, then ask him wrong can you be......

"it's not the child you ever want to run away from it's the whole screwed up system and a society which views some children as more valuable than others"

is that not exactly what JH did when she chose to abandon her child with SN but keep her NT child and then go on to have ANOTHER nt child?

" would trust the judegement of one them and thier family well beyond any social worker"

Thanks for the compliment.
If it helps i would rather my child were placed in residential care for teh elderly rather than be placed with a foster carer who either believes my child is revolting or believes that i thought he was.

Talies - if it's any consolation i don't actually think your as much of a troll as you like to make out.
I have picked up on a few not so subtle hints that you have either a SN child or famly member, im not sure why it is you have not just come out with it as you have tried repeatedly to get us to notice.

What i think you are trying to say ( and please by all means tell me if im wrong)
is that you think JH reached her decision to place Imogen into care because of lack of care provision. you feel that had she been given more support Jh would have been more at ease to have kept Imogen at home?

jamSambam - you are right. there are some on Mumsnet that seem to live in a world that is very different to mine. they have teh luxury of cleaners and nanny's and posh cars and lovely holidays. im lucky if i can afford a weekend in Bogna and some Andrex loo roll.
You seem to share our views about Jh, and yet you have come on the thread and in one post agreed with us and then told us we are all barking?

What i think your trying to say is that we should agree to disagree.

its an admirable point of view but on a subject as emotive as this i just don't think it possible.

Jonkat - Im afraid i find you deplorable and i cannot find anything to defend.
Im sorry.

Pagwatch, the library is going to do a roaring trade.

Oh lord Jonkat - what a twatty reply!

You tell me I can't have a view unless I have read the whole book.
This book is being whored around any paper willing to print and any idiot prepared to put a microphone anywhere near her mouth.

Unless you tell me that the excerpts quoted in the papers are inaccurate lies then i am perfectly entitled to form a view based on what the woman involeved has said.
As for reading the book... ummm no -don't think so. Do you seriously think anything is going to persuade me to give this woman any additional pieces of silver.
I think she has earned quite enough already.

Sorry FioFio,

Who is trollenburg?

This isn't my only posting today either.

amazing how you and trollenburg havent posted all day and then have both posted at a similar time

Lets all see what Ms JH has to say for herself in the flesh as it were.

I have my mega stock of humble pie ready just in case.

I just hope that everyone on here has not already decided what they think.

ok..im bowing out here. I m (personally) glad that there are views on all side of this story, the writer needs to know that her opinion is not what the majority of parents feel, but i still think that every one needs to get a grip. the feelings of society will be reflectd in her book sales. I hope that This Morning has a phone in when she is on and someone can give her the lowdown on how her article has been perceived.

I think (and this is my opinion) that one of the reasons this thread has got so strained is because people have posted in haste and failed to realise how that tone of your voice does not carry on the internet.Im not agreeing with any one anymore!

I'm not cheap by the way, ive never had any help for my sons problems ( not through lack of trying) and im proud ( yes ..proud) that you have all admitted to enjoying you children. I was never talking about the sn threads, which ive been a part of for some time, but there is a whole generation of mums who have no idea how hard things can be. It annoys me that the two worlds are so seperated.

ok, i really have to do some work now....

Please see Wannabe's thread.
JULIA is going to be on 'This Morning', this thursday.

I don't mind.

now now 2shoes, you dont want to be accussed of being in the 'mumsnet collective'

how sad that these people have hijacked a very interesting discussion.

£300 buggies? Jamasam you are so cheap. DD's wheelchair cost £3000.
Thank goodness the taxpayer forked out as we are on benefits...

if she writes a book she is lending herself to criticism aswell, good and bad

I dont think I have done anything by saying I disagree with her and think she is a cold weak person. It is just my opinion

I also think that if JH is going to stand up and say that she talks on behalf of parents of children with SN then we have every right to say she is not speaking in our name.

She does not represent me, and never will.

but, jamsambam, from my reading of this thread, it was never about the non-mainstream opinions.

It is about (and I reiterate) the way that our children have been talked about.

It is about standing up and saying that it is not accepatable that in the 21st century, society is accepting views such as JH seems to hold about her disabled daughter. She is unable to admit, even now, that Immie is actually a person. "they tell me that she likes chocolate" - I would be ashamed to call myself a parent if I had to say something like that about my child. Immie may not react in the "normal" way when showing her likes and dislikes, but if JH has been unable to detect over several years that in some way Immie reacts (as she clearly does according to Tania) then it is because she does not want to see it. and that, as has been pointed out again and again is sad. Desperately sad.

The reactions on this thread have been strong because they are challenging very strong views. They are challenging the fact that JH is seen as brave for saying that her daughter is an animal, that she is not worth celebrating, that she needed to be replaced. These views are, imo, disgusting. I agree with everyone who has said that they cannot see it as brave to refuse to accept that your child has different needs.

THe strongest opinions have been stated over the fact that JH gave up Immie at 5 months old. An age when every family is still struggling with its second child. Every first child is feeling out of sorts (who is this interloper, why aren't they going home again?) and every parent is thinking "why did I think I could do this" .It would appear as though JH didn't even want ot try to fit Immie in. There was no struggle, or at least only the usual one with a newborn. Dd2 was up all night until past 5 month old, and I never htought I'd cope. I did. giving up an NT child because they don't sleep and find feedign difficult would result in a very overstretched social services, so many of us have questioned here why it is seen as brave to do so when the child is disabled.

And telling us our children are revolting is not insulting?

jonkat was extraordinarily rude to mamazon last night.

loo..i agree with everything you have just said silverfrog, in fact i agree with alot of what has been siad on the thread, my irritation with it all is that the 'mumsnet collective' sems to think its ok to insult other posters who dare to voice an opinion that s not 'mainstream'. I think we all need to vent occasionally, we all need to own up to what we are feeling. I have never insulted anyones own way of life, intelligence or ability, i wouldnt do that in real life or online.

Please remember what the op was..about an article written by a woman who openly admits to wanted to smash her daughters head in.

I have work to do.

"I will be here untill tuesday, please try the veal.."

taliesintraction, jamsambam and jonkat:

I address this to the 3 of you because I have neither the time nor the inclination to go searching to find out which of oyu wrote which offensive comment.

On the whole, the reactions on this thread have been because of the language used whenever a child with SN (extra needs, different needs, whatever you want to call it) has been spoken about by any of you or by JH.

We have objected to being told that we all want to give our children away and are jealous of those who have.

We have objected to being told that we are revolted by our children. we have all said plainly that we are not.

we have objected to terms such as "animal" and "ragdoll", possibly because we have come across similar opinions about our own children.

whenever we challenge these points, we are told not to judge someone else. If we do not judge them (or, in my view, challenge these abhorrant opinions) then the world will not change for our children. The children that we see as every bit as good, valuable, worthy, deserving as their NT counterparts.

whenever we challenge these points, your views see to change. These views, have (I believe in the case of Talies, I may be wrong, as I said earlier no time to check) gone from saying that we must all want ot give our children away to now saying "it's not the child you ever want to run away from it's the whole screwed up system and a society which views some children as more valuable than others" - opposing viewpoints, surely?

We on this thread (and I mean here the regulars, whether SN regulars or not) have repeatedly said that at times we despair, at times we find it hard - well, that's just life isn't it? I despair as much over dd2 as dd1. I find dd2 quite a bit more challenging, actually, she is definitely more demanding as a baby than dd1 ever was - maybe I should declare myself a saint? I am obviously more cut out to look after my disabled child than my non-disabled one.

By FioFio on Tue 11-Mar-08 09:24:52
have you even read the thread?

yes.

By 2shoes on Tue 11-Mar-08 09:27:35

how odd changed your mind in one post

no..im pointing out that that is my view and i dont go round poking people with insults because of it....

By ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands on Tue 11-Mar-08 09:29:04
"i would trust the judegement of one them and thier family well beyond any social worker"

More fool you.. you don't know who the hell they are in reality, do you?!"

no..more fool you for assuming..i do know them...
"You get called a nob"

so do you...
The originla article that this thread was started on was horrid. I dont think leaving a child in hospital and asking for foster care is at all what a decent parent would do, the writer of the article cannot claim to be bringing up a special needs child at all..

so shoot me.

Where did the social worker bit come into it anyway?

Actually I'd rather trust my son's care to me over anyone else. Certainly over a foster carer who either thinks all disabled children are revolting or who thinks all parents of disabled children think their children are revolting (confused I am). And I certainly wouldn't trust our 4x4 driving idealist anywhere near him.

Yurt

Can I correct you.

I do not think that anyone is incapable of loving their children disabled or otherwise.

Personally the nicest thing I have read this morning is silverfrog talking about how s/he sees the positives in her/his child.

And please stop being "hairy hand"ist about 4x4 and old truck drivers

PMSL @ 'you get called a nob'.

Oh I'm off to work.

"i would trust the judegement of one them and thier family well beyond any social worker". what, you would put your child into the care of a supposed foster carer who claims to be revolted by children with sn? .

Er not unless you post on a dating site listing those as your hobbies jamsam.

I'm not entirely sure what the point of the rest of your rant was. You lost me somewhere at the beginning and then again with the bit about nannies and playdates (not much talk of them in this section of the board).

And I'm not entirely sure how is trusting the judgment of social workers.

"i would trust the judegement of one them and thier family well beyond any social worker"

More fool you.. you don't know who the hell they are in reality, do you?!

"I feel alot of the posters on Mumsnet are are in cloud cuckoo land with thier £300 buggies and nannies and playdates...do i get called a "hairy handed 4x4 and an old truck driver" now too????"

[incredulous] No. You get called a nob. Right I'm done with this thread. It's really damaging now I think. Goodbye.

I dont blame annonymous posters on an internet forum or attack them verbally just because they have a differnet view.

I personally feel alot of the posters on Mumsnet are are in cloud cuckoo land with thier £300 buggies and nannies and playdates...do i get called a "hairy handed 4x4 and an old truck driver" now too????


how odd changed your mind in one post

have you even read the thread?

oh FFS get a grip on life people, there are SN families all over the world going through a daily hell, then there are the ones who enjoy it. Dont we all have bad days?? dont our kids have bad days??

the term SN is not one i like as it implies the child or the family has to be treated differently. These kids are who they are. end of. Taliesin and jonkat are entitld to any view they damn well choose to have, i would trust the judegement of one them and thier family well beyond any social worker.
Yes my child has special needs, no i dont enjoy my childs endless screeching and tantrums, no i dont enjoy him breaking my nose almost weekly, no i dont want anti depressants and yes, i have imagined life with out my child. so what?? that is my life and my decision. I dont blame annonymous posters on an internet forum or attack them verbally just because they have a differnet view.

I personally feel alot of the posters on Mumsnet are are in cloud cuckoo land with thier £300 buggies and nannies and playdates...do i get called a "hairy handed 4x4 and an old truck driver" now too????

I dont need any qualification to form an opinion that your views are warped, just as you have no qualification to form a view on what you think or dont think is support. I think you are mistaking me for someone who actually gives a shit

I dont consider JH a parent of a child with special needs either

Talies- I don't really care what you think about residential care. I find it odd that you have such a warped view of family life with a disabled child. I find it odd that you seem to find it offensive when parents cope adequately (and are even indecent enough to enjoy their life with their child).

The most prejudiced people here are you and jonkat who appear to believe that parents are incapable of loving their disabled children. I'm not sure if that's more predjudiced towards the parents or those with disabilities.

There is another thread? Where?

I think one of them is under another name 2shoes (or there's another foster carer if not).

I hope to god that our friend talies just posts on soocial worker sites for the hell of it, because if he is one then I dread to think what warped view of family life he is carrying around with him.

but what is so awful and biased about suggesting the default assumption is that parents look after their children, unless there are very strong reasons otherwise? why should a child being disabled automatically reverse that assumption?

Yurt you are mis quoting me.

Anyone who says I am anti residential care per se has simply chosen not to understand what I said, or misrepresented my views to you.

Maybe I should post again in Welsh or French?

Or maybe you won't let facts impede your prejudices.

Taliesintraction
what gives you the right to question fio?
What is your qualification to mount such a personal attack.

You think the 'solution' worked for JH? IN her own words the family needed a year of therapy to get over the abandonment. Elinor too. She needed a counsellor to 'escort my family out of Hell'.

Doesn't sound like it was some sort of easy solution to me. Not for anyone.

And she thinks everyone with their disabled kids are unhappier than her. Deluded.

why are these "concerned " twosome not posting on the other thread. why here?

He really is a hairy handed 4X4 and old truck driver.

Hey FioFio,

What gives you the right to decide my view of reality is "warped".

What is your qualification to mount such a personal attack.

That in my view is not support, though of course you may be able to justify that as well.

Or is it a case of "All SN parents are equal but some are more equal than others"

Well put silverfrog, it's not the child you ever want to run away from it's the whole screwed up system and a society which views some children as more valuable than others.

BUT and it's a big nut, slagging off the likes of JH who seems to have arrived at a situation that works for her family, based on a set of biases and preconceptions that are as pervasive and frankly odious as those that write off children is not the answer in my humble view.

Agreed 2shoes. Especially when he's a 50 year old man.

By Taliesintraction on Mon 10-Mar-08 21:21:34
2 shoes.

If you say that you as a parent have never been taken to the end of your patience by your children then you really are an angel, or prone to telling porkies

I don't think you are very clever. comming into the sn topic purely to shitstir is not clever..just very childish.

I would just like to clarify my last para. My view is not just that she can react etc (pesky SN child interfering with my htought process )

My view is that dd1 is a very happy, joyous child with a great sense of humour and the ability to tease as well as a sense of fun. She is a loving little soul, and I just cannot ever imagine feeling revulsion toward her. It just is not possible.

Talies is a non-social worker who posts on radical social worker sites about his antipathy towards residential care. WRT children with social problems rather than disabled kids though.

So I'm not sure that loving families who are not at a point of breakdown are all that familiar to him.

That might explain some of the tone of the posts and the disbelief that wow we actually enjoy our lives.

Taliesintraction and jonkat when you both waded in here with your warped idea of normality, did you ever stop and think for one minute what this section of mumsnet is for?

Its a support forum, so yes thats right we support each other. We dont go around insulting each other. I suggest you both have a good read of the thread before you start saying anything about 'coping', admitting you cannot cope or anything else you have a warped view about.

headgirl I do think you are right though!

I have just sat here this morning reading through this thread with increasing incredulity.

All parents of SN children have, at some point felt revolted by them? Bollocks.

I have 2 daughters (1 SN, 1 NT). They have both, at times, delighted, exhausted and exasperated me. Both of them. Neither has ever revolted me.

I have never secretly hankered to give away my SN child. I am not jealous of those who have reached the decision to have their child cared for outside the home.

I have wanted to run away from it all in the past, but even in my despair at that point, I knew that deep down, running away would not solve anything, because I would take dd1 with me!

It is the rest of the world I want to run away from, not dd1. It's the people who continually ask me if I prefer dd2 because she is NT. Or the people who ask me "is she always like this?" (asked when dd1 was sitting on my knee, nibbling a biscuit at a toddler group - her crime? she was quiet and well behaved, and unable to join in with the other children playing. She was seen as too clingy. she was 2 fgs).

I want to run away form the people who always ask "but when will she be able to do XXX?"

But, crucially, I want to take dd1 away form it all too. I want ot take her away form being judged, and seen as not good enough.

I want to take her away from people like JH, who, it appears, will always see her as not worth celebrating, and not worth any time or effort, because she cannot react as a "normal" person would.

My view? She can react. She has feelings (I may not always understand them, but htey are there). She has likes and dislikes. She is a child, and it is my job as her parent to work out a way to help her achieve whatever she is capable of. Just as I will help dd2 achieve whatever she is capable of. The only difference is that they are capable of different things.

No Taliesintraction is not from Doncaster and no he is not a social worker.

Yes he does live in a wild part of Wales on top of a mountain, in the house where his mother was born.

What more shall I say,

He is 6' 1 51 years young, a biker, runs his own buisiness and balances that with parenting and sharing the care of his 4 children.

That is only a partial picture but enough to feast your preconceptions and prejudices on I am sure...

Off to shudder in revulsion (aparently) but definately to get more coffee....

I've re-read that post again and just cannot see the quote in it.

But anyway- if it isn't a quote - then what are you saying? The same as our radical social worker friend Talies that really we're all secretly yearning to give up our disabled children and wipe them out of our life?

What a weird fucked up view of parenthood. And disability.

you know what us disgusting disabled poeple say.....big fat raspberry at ya.
Bet you're all shuddering in revulsion now.

God knows what you think. You have some warped idea that us parents feel that way about our children.

Which I find incredibly disturbing.

If books like JH's reinforce some idea that feeling that way is normal then that's terrifying.

yurt1

You may be able to pick me up on syntax, I don't really mind.

Ask yourself if I would have fostered two DC for 15 years if that were my attitude or thought.

Come on now, it isn't hard !!

jonkat

"taliesintraction - completely off topic, but intrigued by your username - are you into welsh trains/vehicles?"

i would say thats a decent description...

hehehehe...

I'll see how long it takes you to work that one out..wales..special needs threads..lone parent threads...jam-SAM-bam....

so we have yurt as cagney, mamazon as lacey, and I'll be erm the sandwich lady?

PMSL I'm off to bed.

Good night parents and social workers (radical ones or otherwise).

and can be used to fry eggs

NO he's from Doncaster, lives in Manchester and is a social worker TC. <Cagney and Lacey emoticon>

"Don't forget that anyone who has taken a particular decision then has a personal need to reasure themselves that their decision was the right one."

by writing a book and appearing on tv and radio?

"One way of boulstering ourselves in our decisions is to vilify anyone who takes a different decision."

which explains most of your posts here then

jonkat - I'm a bit bemused by the post about "decisions" - if people have never considered residential care for their children except for the long-term, then surely there is no decision as such, more maintaining the status quo.

taliesintraction - completely off topic, but intrigued by your username - are you into welsh trains/vehicles?

oh for gods sake. Who is being self righteous now?

Of course we're all burning to get rid of out disabled children. Would dump them at the first opportunity to be brought up by foster carers who think that parents can only find their children revolting.

I find it more and more terrifying with everything you write that you are a foster carer.

Taliesintraction

Don't forget that anyone who has taken a particular decision then has a personal need to reasure themselves that their decision was the right one.

One way of boulstering ourselves in our decisions is to vilify anyone who takes a different decision.

jonkat.

I find it quite an insult to say Parents of disabled children are repulsed by them. When my daughter was first diagonesed, we had a lot of professional input, as happens. At one point I felt like running off with her so we could be left alone. I didn't think about going off and leaving her behind. Of course i didn't do that, didn't have anywhere to go!

jonkat you are incredibly rude.

That sentence does not make it clear that the previous line was a quote.

you would do well to read a paper I have here on writing for academic publications- it states that if someone misinterprets you then it is your fault. You were not clear enough in your writing.

On this thread numerous people have missed that you were quoting. Perhaps you need to rewrite that paragraph rather than carry on being so rude to Mamazon.

It doesn't matter anyway- it still suggests that you believe that it is normal for parents to be revolted by their disabled children. Something I find incredibly worrying in a foster carer, and one exchange which means I will never ever use foster care (never intended to anyway but now its a certainty).

odd that you direct such venom towards me despite everyone else on this thread also being outraged at your comment.

you made your comment as inclusive. yes you qualified yourself by saying you were different as you fostered, but you did not remove yourself from the comment.

you didnt say i have heard parents say they felt revulsion, you said it as a first party comment.

read it back dear, and do not attempt to patronise me.

Oh dear dear,

mamazon, which bit of:

"OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me."

is it that you can't understand ?

jonkat

read India Knights comments below the article

should have been Aren't butits late.

im off to bed lol

mamzon go to bed hun
I said my ds.

Fantastic column from IK.

"My sister is fab, glad my parents are selfish twunts with beards"

i think ds should write a book..........what could the title be?

i know. ds is getting into all sorts.......thrash metal.
do you have the number for ss

i know.

but its ok because i neghlect my Nt daughter and i am single so it all balances out in teh end

she does you know. terrible what tall people do...
they get big ideas

Bloody hell mamazon you can't be the mother of a child with SN AND a professional. Heaven's above woman stop getting ideas about your station.

I missed you were quoting (I still miss that actually and wow I'm a professional person too- must be us pros eh- lost our mind reading skills).

So we all missed you were quoting.

And quoting or not - totally vile to reproduce it on the SN board. No. The vast majority of parents are NOT repulsed by their children, and I would suggest that those who are need help. It is not normal to be repulsed by your own child- even when they are disabled .

(but a very professional mother)

just to clarify, i am here as a mother not a professional.

As for the breast pump thing, which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now...........OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me

you posted that
the you said later it was what someone else said

Jonkat you didn't make it remotely clear that you were quoting. And professional person or not I assume mamazon is no mind reader.

And anyway, even if you were quoting I find it somewhere between odd and horrific (and actually quite warped) that you think it so normal that parents think that way about their children that you thought it appropriate to reproduce here.

which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now...........OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me."

you used collective terms. US/WE involves yourself in this train of thought. you implied that you were one of us

you tried to suggest that we also felt this way, that is disgusting.

mamazon

I used no 'disgusting' terms - what I did was (and as a professional person you, I would have thought, should be able to have seen the difference) was to quote other mothers of DC that I have spoken to.

i.e. their words - not mine - do you understand the difference now ?

jonkat

Back again,half asleep reading this fantastic thread.I have have felt some strong emotions around my son,but more despair directed towards myself.Revolted is not a word I have ever use or will ever use.
Sadly it is probably an emotion others might feel.I`ve seen David Cameron and his wife around his profoundly disabled son and they so obviously adore him,and Nancy their daughter was so attentive and loving towards him.Yes they do have loads of money but I still feel they have presented an alternative picture,come on David lets see some more pictures of all your family,if possible.One or two more pictures are creeping into the press.
There is a book that got me through the first weeks,it would have helped Julia and Jay.It`s called `Does she know she`s here?` about a very similar family who kept their baby.Thats it except thanks to the regulars like Yurt,2shoes,heart in the country,thank you so much.You have no idea how much you have helped me,I don`t feel so alone.If only Julia could have met you,she would be in a different place.

link here

Just saw this part 2 can't do a link sorry but it was here
http://timesonline.typepad.com/india_knight/2008/03/julia-hollander.html

We’re all muddling through as best we can; our reward is anything from a hug from a “normal” child to the painstaking ghost of a smile from the immobile face of one who is not. Anyone who feels unable to grasp this should get their tubes tied, pronto. And Hollander should give up writing books, stop pretending that everything’s fine and get the help she so clearly needs.

Interesting!?

yup

You're on TTR Mamazon aren't you?

well i am going to take my self righteous self off to bed.

if you figure out newbie isn't a newbie can someone let me know who it is

I do think I've seen the writing style before but don't know where.

yurt email me?

do-do-do-do
oooohhh it gets more intriguing, as we go on ...........

No Oblomov,

I joined up here yesterday.

Been around the block a few times but not on here.

oooooh. <<inquisitive emoticon>>

yurt, please spill the beans.

Head girl,

I am scared to say what i do.

I was cast as various things then in each case in the next sentence the role I had was described negatively.

I was accused of expressing views about carers and parents that I never have never held.

People seem to answer the case they wish i had made rather than the one I have.

Not a newbie ?
Have I been misled ?
Am I being a bit stupid here ?

Talies - Thats why mumsnet is so great. So addictive.
I don't actually mind her not coping, or having her child fostered. But it is all done in such a chillingly cold hearted way. And if she said, I did this. I could say, o.k. I would/wouldn't but....
But she comes across as ... so arrogant, among other things.
I know this thread - and the other thread are very long, but have you actually understood what peoples main objections are ?

Oh OK i know who you are Talies. And you're not new.

Sorry expat,

I freely confess to being the newbie here.

Mad as it might sound I am really enjoying this group.

Having your views challenged is very useful I feel.

Fire away everyone, I won't take it personally so long as you attack my views and not me as a person.

I find the idea that we're all revolted by our children but too ashamed to admit it creepy. Not to mention weird.

Talies - this is an open forum, but most of us are transparent in our viewpoint as parents of kids with SN.
where are you coming from? why won't you be open.
Cos until you do, what you say does sound patronising......

Thing is, I'm NOT revolted by DS. Not even secretly. As I've said he really does drive me to exhuausted despair, but he has never revolted me. I love him so much I could cry.. daily!

Why would it be routinely assumed that we "all" have this shameful feeling deep down about our disabled children? I just don't understand.

Well stop treating us like some poor little stupid people who couldn;t possibly understand how the dark and wicked system works.

I know of some fantastic adult continuing education provision (and one reason I would consider it for ds1 is because it's so much better than local available day provision). The main problem is getting SS to fund it. But I'm pretty confident that if that's where we decide we want ds1 to go then he will go there. He won't go anywhere crap anyway.

I don't need to be talked through the system. I know how it works. I deal with it (sorry for not fitting the stereotype of being on my knees and desperate for help).

Sorry, Talies, but PMSL at your efforts to 'help' yurt.

If you hang round, you'll soon discover what a font of knowledge she is.

This is what jonkat said:

"As for the breast pump thing, which of us has not (at some dark hour of the night) felt revolted by what we have produced ? Be honest now...........OK I know I foster ours and did not give birth to them so it is very different for me."

And actually whether or not she meant it as a quote I find the expectation that she has that we're all revolted by our children utterly chilling.

Good on you Yurt,

and no i was not being patronising,

believe it or not I was trying to help.

Well said Turq.

And Talies, don't you think we know that? But provision and financial circumstances mean that people often cannot pick and choose their own choice of residential care.

And when/if he leaves the family home it'll be because it's too much for one person so I'm not sure how foster care could really help our situation.

I think you will find that Jonkat was quoting a parent of a child with SN (not JH either) when he used the word "revulsion".

Has Jonkat gone ?
Maybe she regrets her choice of words.
I certainly hope so.

Oh FGS Talies I'm not stupid. Stop being so bloody patronising.

Rest assured when and if ds1 leaves the family home (we're aiming for 19 at the earliest btw) it will only be for excellent provision, and I'll give his destination a little more thought than JH managed.