Hi everyone, managed for the first time to get somewhere with our doctor yesterday! He let us have a photocopy of DH's semen analysis (he had a vasectomy reversal last July and we were told he had about a 40% chance of fathering again which is the lower end of the success level of such operations)

The results dont look great and have spent all night stressing over it so.....can anyone with any experience or knowledge help me and tell me if its possible to conceive naturally with these numbers:

Motility = 20%
count= 11.3 million/ml
morphology = 8.9% normal.

I understand that fertile sperm should be more than 50% motile, count greater than 20.0 x10^6/ml and 15% or more normal motility

So please if someone could tell me can we conceive with these low numbers??

yours not very hopefully

PM

Bump

Also does anyone know how much effect the time elapsed from producing the sample to the lab receiving it has??

Clutching at straws here I know but it took us an hour to get from home to the path lab at the hosp - could that have much of an effect?

Hello Pinkmook

I didn't want your post to go un-answered but it's really up to your doctor to explain what these mean.

From what i understand anything under 20million is considered low and they generally like to see 30% normal with 60% motility. So, roughly, your husband's levels are half what doctors like to see.

however it does only take one - and people do get PG with low counts. Zinc is said to hugely improve sperm quality (I don't think it's possible to increase nunmbers)

p.s - I'm sure i've read that sperm counts can increase for anyting up to a year following reversal so your husband's count could still increase.

Thanks Nancy66 - the doctor told us the sperm test results were fine, normal!! I knew they couldn't be as the after the vasectomy reversal we were told there was lots of scarring etc and one side had to be attached directly to the testicle rather than tube to tube as it was very badly damaged.

we went in and asked if we could actually have the printout and after some umming and ahhing they let us have it.

so I cant get my doctor to explain it as he clearly hasn't a clue (despite the fact that on the prinout it states the WHO guidelines for what is considered normal!!!)

We knew it would be low but I think I hoped it would be nearer to normal IYSWIM.

I wonder if the time elapsed could make that much difference to motility? I guess it wouldn't effect morphology or probably even count but maybe they would have died/stopped swimming after 1 hour? straws to grasp at anyone?

Hi pinkmook - why don't you get the tests done again privately? Or could you request a second test on the NHS and this time get your husband to do the test there? when my husband had sperm tests he always produced the sample on site and the time the sample was produced and then tested was written on the top of the results sheet, there was about a 20 mins time gap. Or maybe ask to see a different GP?

Thanks helenlouisey i think we will do that actually. We are going to a GYne app for me beggining investigations into our FTC on 27th may so I may ask then.

I have been through this recently for my DH's (naturally, i.e. not after a vasectomy reversal) poor sperm count. Our GP was also useless at interpreting results, which look worse then your DH's.

When my DH has been tested he always produces his sample on site at the hospital. No dashing to hospital, so it might be worth asking whether that is a possibility.

I believe that you should never rely on a single sperm test to give you the full picture, the results always differ and your DH should be tested again in a few weeks and the results compared and then possibly again. Ask your GP for another test and, if poorer, a referral to a urologist if the results look significantly below WHO guidelines again. We have been referred to a fertility unit where they are conducting further, more detailed sperm tests - I believe that the GP testst are only the initial indicator and consultants do a more detailed test under better conditions.

I understand that sperm should be tested within minutes for the best view and do deteriorate when out of the body, so if it is over an hour, that can affect the results.

I think any doctor or friend will tell you that it only takes one, which is true, but not terribly helpful. I don't think many doctors would tell you or even hazzard a guess on %liklihood of conception using one set of results.

GryffinGirl - thanks for your very reassuring post, I really do appreciate people taking the time to talk me down IYGWIM!

I find myself spinning off into huge anxiety and really need some sensible calm info/advice sometimes!

GryffinGirl - are you still trying TTC or have you had success yet?

I've not had experience with vasectomy reversal, but DH had his sperm checked a few years ago when we were FTC. He was basically told that his sperm was so poor that the chances of conception were almost nil. I asked what treatment there was, and was told that there were 'a few things we could try, but none of them very effective'.

After a great deal of soul searching I decided it was unfair to put DH through any pointless treatment and chose to move on with my childless life. Two years later I found out that I was pg, and now have a healthy son. Not only that, but of the only 2 occasions subsequently that we've had unprotected sex - I conceived both times! (Went on to have have 2 MC, but that's irrelevant).

So in summary, as other posters have said, the results from a single check really shouldn't be used in isolation. Don't give up - honestly, it's still quite possible that you'll conceive!

Gumbo - thanks, I love these types of success stories!

pinkmook - we are still TTC naturally. It has been approx 18 months for us. Neither of us have DC's or any other "evidence" we can conceive (i.e. previous pregnancies with other partners or miscarriages)

We are also about 3/4 of the way through our initial NHS tests and consultations and on the road to possible fertility treatment. I have the joy of going through them too, despite having clockwork cycles and no obvious problems. So far I have "passed" with flying colours!

DH's sperm test results 2nd time round were improved (from a very poor start!) but still way too low and he has "impaired fertility". He is having a third, very detailed test, this week. He has also had blood tests for testosterone and other hormone levels and a physical examination.

There is no apparent explanation of my DH's condition from what we know so far, so we are in different situations to you because a vasectomy removal is a physical indicator as to why your DH's sperm test was "sub-optimal". However, i think lifestyle changes are a good thing too - can't go wrong. My DH has given up alcohol, cycling and baths, has switched to loose pants and is eating lots of organic fruit and veg and taking Man Vits. Luckily he doesn;t smoke which is apparently a huge factor in poor sperm. We'll see if there is an improvement!

Good luck with everything

Gumbo - your story is really great for keeping my hopes up of TTC naturally. I joke that my DH's swmmer need zimmers!

pinkmook - i would also add that you can increase your chances of TTC naturally by knowing your own cycles intimately. By charting, temping or using ovulation predictor kits, you can pinpoint when you ovulate which will help to maximise the impact of any little swimmers and the correct timing for BD-ing .

Wow that must be very confusing not knowing why you haven't conceived yet. I wish you lots of luck in getting your pregnancy.

I have been obsessively charting, taking vits (and DH!) and have started eating a low GI diet (I think I may have PCOS) using OPK's even though if I have PCOS they wont work - but hey I'm desperate!

This month we decided to BD every other day from day 8.....getting a little beeeet sick of it now....and I'm only on day14

keep BDing ladies we can only hope.....

my dh count was terrible. they said it was a 'miracle' we had one child... I now have 2 more. We were recomended a herb by a herbalist called 'saw palmetto'. DH put a few drops in water and drank twice a day, and then I caught a few weeks later - on both subsequent occasions. Two more friends have tried it and also had success! You can get it from holland and barrett

wow crystaltips!! That is fantastic - right Holland and Barrett it is for me then!

oops not day 8... from day 10 and even so Im fed up of it

tastes vile though! I was referred for ivf, and caught before the appointment. I think dh took it for 2 months before we caught. With third child he took it 3 months before i would even try, but i caught first month - could't believe it! Two freiends have tried for years and caught same way! It is a herb that is used for men with prostate trouble, but that area is all connected, sort of !

Dh's sperm quality was so bad (he had mumps as a teenager) we were told we had no chance at all of conceiving naturally (much worse than your dh's - less than 1% forward motile -, though the count was high) . We accepted that and forgot about the issue. For unrelated reasons dh started to take zinc supplements and effectively cut out all alcohol.

Ds is now almost 17 months. We are hoping for another miracle, but not holding our breath.

wow ib thats amazing and fantastic! I guess zinc and saw palmetto it is for DH!

thank you for the saw palmetto tip crystaltips. I have said to DH and he's off to H&B in his lunch hour to get some .

My dad has prostate cancer, so I was aware of the benefits of saw palmetto for helping that condition, but I hadn't realised the fertility benefits it could bring.

Hi crystaltips - v. interesting post about 'saw palmetto', how many mg was your DH on?

I can't remember, I'm sorry. 4 drips in glass of water? twice a day - i'm sure it was no more than that.....
Please let me know how you get on..

just got my saw palmetto - wish us luck!

Good luck

Out of curiousity, how much mg did you buy?

I'm hoping to get some for my dh.

they are only tiny bottles - like lavender oil size, I think. They do last ages because you only use drips!

Hello I am really interested in this thread as we are having similar problems.
We have been trying for 4 years for our 3rd and getting really peed off. I fell pregnant with the other 2 quite easiy, so after all the tests we think my dh might be the problem. I was interested to see that another husband had mumps as a child and that motility issues are quite common. We have tried Zinc & selenium but to no avail. We might try the saw paletto thing, thank you for making me realise we are not alone.

Well I didnt get drops I got tablets (from Holland and Barrett) they are 450 mg and it says on the instructions you can empty the capsules out and add hot water to make a kind of tea!

Now I have got to try and get DH to remember to take the bloody things!

Thanks pink let us know how you get on.

Hi again hopefor3. I'm over on the 40+ ttc thread. Have a read through the thread, I think a couple off us had 'sperm' issues. I posted under my other name 'Blessed2' when I first joined the thread. I have a blocked tube (due to be sorted out in august)and my dh has 'sperm' issues plus he rides his bike to and from work every day, 30mins each way What can I say? This ttc is a trying business

xerialshopper - my DH also rides to work and back every day - more like 1 hr there and 1 hr back he's not for giving it up though - awkward get!

Well, I've got my hubby on zinc, selenium, b6, b12, vit c and flaxseed Trust me, we need all the help we can get.

I think I will put him on the saw palmetto next week, for a month and see how it goes. I'm presuming that he has to take I tablet every day?????????

Snap! my dh on zinc, magnesium, b6, a mens pronatal, proxeed (you can get this from access diagnostics it contains L-Carnitine and Acetyl l carnitine which are supposed to be great for sperm!) and saw palmetto

The Holland and B ones I got are 2 twice a day

Are we married to the same man? Is your dh 6ft with slight male pattern baldness?

Joking aside, I'll look into the proxeed. The L-Carnitine cost sooooo much at H&B that I didn't buy it.

Fingers crossed for you Pink. AF due sunday, so I'll let you know how we get on next month. When are you due? Or are you on a 2ww?

I'm having a big THINK about what I'm going to do when af starts, as I should be taking my 2nd round of clomid.

If you can't find me I'm also on the ttc 40+ thread.

No! that is too spooky! I would post a pic if it didn't reveal my identity - yes 6ft yes slight male pattern baldness - dark hair, a bit mediterrainian looking???

yes the proxeed was v expensive but i was feeling v desperate and sad when I bought it online

I am on cd17 but cycles been loopy since TTC, had 1x23day 1x56day several 31's and a 29! - having said that though FF thinks I ovulated on cd15 and I have had very sore boobs/nips since then (only had this once before and I understand this is a sign of ovulation so I am hopeful I have ovulated this month and that I will have a fairly normal length cycle!

Will keep an eye out for you - let me know if you get your bfp

SAW PALMETTO - just wanted to post this here as I decided to look into what saw palmetto is used for as I have bought some after reccomendation on here - very worrying info is what I found - please read if you have bought SP or are planning on buying it -look at table 3 in this article:

SAW PALMETTO

Thanks for that Pink. Yeh, I did some 'research' on SP as well. I have decided against giving it to dh as if the zinc, seleium, flaxseed, vit c.........doesn't increase those little swimmers and turn them into superheros, then I'm sure nothing will

Now, back to dh. Is your dh's parents divorced and his father has passed away?!!!!! I don't know how he does it 2 wives

Well I'm still waiting or AF but actually I think she's due tomorrow because today is cd28. I've always been regular 26-28 days but since I did take clomid last month I will just have to wait and see.

Hmmm its scary isnt it that you get so desperate for a "miracle cure" you can end up giving them something that makes it worse

Ahhh there the story falls down - Dh parents both still very much alive and still married much to their mutual annoyance (unless its an elaborate ruse....)

Fertlity freind jusr mved my ov day from day 15 - to day 17 more waiting now! Luckily managed to get 2 shags after I thought I had ov'd on day 15 - lucky huh!

I am going to see the consultant on Tuseday - v excited and nervous and hope I manage to remember to ask everything important!

Are you up to anything nice this bank hol weekend?

Yes Pink I am up to something nice this bank holiday ...... helping my ds aged 6 clean up his bedroom Turning the heat on and staying in the house is our lot this bank holiday.

Af got me yesterday - Sunday. I'm going to take clomid again this month but not bd undil day 12, 14, 16, 18 or, if dh can hang on day 14, 16, 18, 20, and 22

What are you seeing your consultant about (if you don't mind me asking)? I'm going to have my right tube unblocked in August. Me thinks my dh is beyond help it's all down to me

I am going as we have been TTC since October last year and my cycles have varied between 23 days and 56 days plus dh's sperm results are so bad I am hoping we can get a referal to a urologist and maybe get him looked at too (fingers crossed emoticon!)

I helped my DS (also 6! getting scary now!) do a similar task!

ps bad luck about AF - good luck with the clomid x

Thanks Pink.

Is this just mine and your thread?

Seems like everyone elses sperm problems are sorted then

Ha ha! yep its just us with sub standard sperm I think

I had some spotting yesterday (cd22 and either 4dpo or 6 dpo depending which line I belive that FF has drawn!)

Cant be implantation so I am probably going to come on in the next few days and that means I didn't ovulate (again) Boo.

so Ive got crap sperm and shite eggs....I'm doing well aren't I?

My dh had a vasectomy reversal in order for us to have children. The first sperm test showed a few non-motile sperm and the second showed absolutely no sperm dead or alive. What the doctor didn't tell us was that this could change over time (months). He suggested that we try again privately and do invitro at the same time as the redo on the "resurectomy" (as my brother called it). So we liquidated some funds, got married and went on honeymoon and prepared to start the whole process (hormone shots etc.) when we got back. Well, guess what, I got pregnant on our wedding night. And then 12 months after ds was born I got pregnant again with dd after only one month of trying. We never did go back and get dh's sperm tested again since clearly someone got it wrong and what was the point after the fact. I'm just angry that no one ever clearly explained that there was possibility that the results that they were quoting us were not fixed and could change with time. Luckily we found out before I got shot up with tons of hormones, dh had another major operation and we spent a small fortune.
Anyway, good luck, we are living proof that there is hope even if they tell you that you have no sperm.

SofiaAmes - I LOVE posts like this

but I do very quickly go back to thinking "I will not be so lucky"

DH has had 2 sperm tests now one 3 months post op and one recntly (about 10 months post op) we never had sight of the first test but the doc said it was "fine low side of normal" which I seriously doubted so we had the most recent one and asked to see it and as you can see from the first post in this thread - is far from normal!

I just hope his reversal has not started to scar over

Dh's sperm tests were a little closer to post op than your dh's, but they told him that it must be because his reversal had scarred over. They were wrong. Just make sure you are having lots of sex (according to doctor friend of mine, lack thereof is #1 reason for no pregnancy)!!!

We are trying (re: lots of sex!) but with my irregular cycles its hard to time it right - and I physically/mentally cant do it every single day (or even every other day for 2/3rds of a month!!)

Thanks for giving me a bit of hope though

Hooray - a vasectomy reversal success story - just what we wanted to hear - miracles can happen!! Thanks for cheering me up no end!

Pink where are you? How are you doing? Which thread are you on so that I can track you down and keep up with you?

Hi Xserial I am on vasectomy reversal success?? thread how are you doing?

I'm fine. Waiting for af to finish. I've got my clearblue fertility monitor and test sticks ready.......... Lots of bd this month I think, including days 16, 18, and 20

I'll keep an eye on you in the vrs thread. I've got everything crossed for you.

Oh yeh, get some pre seed from www.babymad.com £9.95 for 6 with free postage.
xxxxxx

Already got pre-seed! It looks like a flipping chemists under my bed at the mo with LH sticks HCG sticks, pre-seed....

You sound like you're all set for this month Xserial, you go girl!

Pink - I've got 6 boxes of 30 test sticks each So I've just got to use them

Really Laughung OUt Loud

You better get to it. those sticks wont pee on themselves

Hello
PM - my DH had quite similar sperm results to the ones you posted - produced a few more, but they were less motile, and the morphology was much the same. Our GP also told us it was a normal result! It only took 6 months before our DD was conceived, but we've been trying that long for number 2 already.
Also on all the supplements....
Has anyone been told how often to BD with poor swimmers?

Hi tousletop - so you conceived dd with those poor sperm results in 6m??

Wow thats really giving me hope!

I have read conflicting ideas re: how much bonking with crap sperm - some say NO MORE than every other night.

Zita West says thats bollocks (all beit crap sperm filled bollocks ) and that you should d it every day during fertile window but not more than once per day (no chance in my case )

When we saw the fertility consultant last tuesday he said 2-3 times per week during fertile and non fertile times was fine

Sorry probably just confused you more!

Thanks PM.
So I suppose, like everything to do with this baby making thing, no-one really knows!
We started off having lots and lots of sex throughout fertile time when ttc DD, and it was only when we reduced things to every other day that we got lucky (but obviously its not working this time...)
Are there people out there who manage more then once daily when ttc????
Hope all going well with fertility specialists, what are they planning next (if you don't mind me asking)?

I remember having sex more than once a day...... but that was when in the first year of marriage, 9 years ago

How are you Pink? I think I'm going to do BD every other day other my peak period. If that doesn't work the following month we'll do every day straight for 5 days over the peak period

Xerial - yes more than once in day??? loooong looong ago I remeber the days when we could manage it 6 times in a day...he's lucky now to get 6 times a month

tousletop - next stages for us are blood tests (lh fsh, tft all that stuff) a procedure where they inject dye into my reproductive bits (poss called a lap and dye - not sure) and for DH a more detailed sperm analysis looking at sperm antibodies