Despite planning a peaceful waterbirth at home, I ended up having a very scary OP/ventouse delivery with my daugher nearly 2 years ago (delayed second stage, retained placenta, 3rd degree tear, plus internal tearing which had not healed after 6 months and required cauterising)

I have been offered a C-section and will see the consultant again to make my decision in just over a week. At present (35wks) bump is transverse, so the decision to have a section may yet be taken out of my hands. However part of me is secretly hoping the baby stays transverse so I don't have to justify having a section.

I can't understand why so many women seem to be anti-sections. It seems admitting a preference for a section is almost taboo.
I still get horrific flashbacks to delivering my daughter and can't think of anything worse than going through that again (my DP rates it as the most traumatic day of his life!! ) The thought of a calm, planned c-section sounds like bliss. Am I being naive?

I should also say that I will have excellent support from friends and family to help me cope with caring for an active toddler and a newborn in the weeks that follow - so I am sure I am luckier than many..

Would love to hear some opinions on this ladies!

I'm not anti-CS per se but it's more dangerous for you than giving birth naturally (although I can see that after a birth like yours it probably doesn't feel like it), the recovery can be very difficult for some women and it can be difficult to establish breastfeeding.

Having said that, I had one because my baby's life was at risk. Although it was planned, it wasn't calm particularly as I had to spend all day in hospital and didn't get my CS until 5.30pm although I'd been booked in for 8am. Not being able to walk for a day or so, not being able to lift anything for a bit and then not being able to drive for six weeks was a bit crap tbh.

DS was transverse right up to 39 weeks so I was preparing myself for a CS and TBH I was really secretly hoping to have one as I just didn't think I'd be able to cope with a 'normal' birth!

You're right though - there is a great taboo about discussing it, almost a perception that by expressing a preference for a CS you're lacking some maternal instinct - similar almost to the breast vs bottle debate IMO!

I've had abdominal surgery similar to c section.
but then I also had three very easy vaginal deliveries. So for me there is no comparison. But of course c sections are very important for many reasons, birth phobia from previous traumatic delivery very valid imo

I would have had a section if it had been necessary. But I would never plan to have one.

For me the thought of being awake while someone cut me open filled me with absolute dread. C Sections certainly have their place but unless it had been absolutely necessary for me, no thanks.

I don't know why, jive.

It's really no one's business what a woman does with her body, and that includes how she choses to give birth.

I had a c-section and it was brilliant!! My waters broke and when they tested at hospital there was meconium in the waters and so the 'augmented' my labour which meant I spend the next 13 hours on a drip on a bed (despite preparing for water birth, active labour, preg yoga etc etc). After 13 hours, even on the drip I had managed to dilate 2cm (woo hoo...) when the registrar/surgeon suggested a section on ds was displaying tiredness signs. My birth plan was to do what was best for me and the baby and so we did it, I LOVED it, and we had a lovely healthy baby. If we have another child I am going to have an elective as it was such an amazing experience.
Happy to discuss more if you want more details etc, but I thought it was great!
Gillian.

I think people are more anti section when people plan it as 'to posh to push' but that certainly doesnt sound like the case for you. consultants dont offer sections for no reason as sections are actually more risky than normal births, but if they think they is a change your birth wont be normal than the ideas of a section might be introduced.
You need to do what is best for you and your baby and dont worry about what anyone thinks. If you feel you have to say something but dont want to go into the in and outs just say its for a medical reason and if people ask why just say you would rather not talk about it.
Btw I had crash section for ds1 (not very nice, esp as had to be knocked out) I actually managed a vbac for ds2 but that went drastically wrong and I fell unconscious as they pulled him out with forceps. With my next I am definetly having a planned section, hopefully less risky for me and hopefully guarantee I will be awake this time

Lots of people are paranoid and agressive about anything that might benefit mothers. Because any wish to escape agony or servitude is, to some people (usually those who will never be in that position) a sign that you are Selfish (ie think you are a human being) and therefore a Bad Woman (not a breeding machine).

C-sections are not much fun. They hurt and thye recovery time is generally longer than the recovery time for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. However, vaginal birth isn't automatically easy and smooth: childbrith was about the single biggest killer of women up to a hundred or so years ago. IF you are PG and not sure what you want, get as much infor as you can, talk to your medical team and make the decision that you feel is right. and bollocks to anyone else.

People can be a bit strange though, as although I thought it was great other people often think you must be 'devastated' not to have had a vaginal delivery, but for me this was not an issue at all. I signed the consent papers for the section, it all went a bit 'ER' (people running everywhere!!) and 14 mins later there was the baby...
I would recommend shaving or waxing yourself before you go infor it though as I had a very unflattering rush job by a midwife which took a while to grow back!!!

I am not anti c-section, but I am anti women electing to do it as a choice when there is no medical reason.

I had 2 elective c-sections and definatly have a preference for c-sections. I am not convinced an elective c-section is less safe than a vaginal delivery either. I have 4 children and my 2 elective sections were the most peaceful, relaxed,calm, beautiful deliveries. I would definatly say if that's what you want, then go for it.

Applauds madamez!

So women shouldn't have a choice about what they do to their bodies unless there's a medical necessity then, Abbey?

I have noticed that there is always a group of people who are anti the way you decided to give birth.
The anti c section people
The anti epidural people
The people who are quick to call those who do it with no pain relief martyrs.
People who think homebirths are crazy

to name just some.

Can't win however you do it.

I don't know why jivegirl.

I have had 2 elective sections - both of which I requested as I have honestly never fancied a vaginal birth. There is an alternative to a vaginal birth which I opted for, my decision. I found them both to be fantastic, calm and lovely experiences. Recovery is quicker than people like to scare you with and you can drive a car soon after it, with DC2 I was back driving after 11 days.

Can you tell I am a big fan

I loved my elective c-section experience and would absolutely recommend to anyone. Recovery was far far easier than I had expected too, although maybe I was just lucky with that. Go with your gut instinct and do what is right for you.

Ho ho - I wouldn't get very far then with the 'anti's' - I had gas and air, an epidural (decided on once i was informed I was going to be augmented - hey - if I was going to be stuck on a bed I was going to be comfortably stuck on a bed...) AND a c-section!
Although in my first trimester I was set on a home birth with pool, but after 24hours in after a nasty vomiting bug I chose to go to hospital as the hosptial and all the staff were so nice!

I don't think it's any one else's business how you have a baby. It's a bit like breast vs bottle - good reasons for encouraging women to have natural births and giving them support to achieve this, but not really for anyone to make you feel bad if there are good reasons why you decide you want to have a c-section. C-sections have saved lives of mothers and babies many times - my dd probably wouldn't have made it if they hadn't done a c-section when they did.

FWIW, like jessicart I remember hoping when pg for the first time that I'd need a c-section for some reason as the idea of giving birth naturally terrified me. After the event, which was pretty horrible, I decided that next time round I'd give natural birth my best shot, but that was mostly because I was highly motivated to avoid the hideous recovery knowing I'd have an active toddler to look after as well. I had a lot of support from various sources and had an amazing VBAC...but I would never judge someone who decided to opt for an elective c-section. Just not sure it's any of my business!

I'm a big fan too as my section was painfree and recovery time quick - I was out of hospital in 3 days and out and about by the end of that week with only a short scar along my bikini line to show for it!

C-sections aren't so bad in my experience and I have never felt bad about having had mine. Childbirth is a messy old business any way you look at it.

Statistically the risks are there but pretty small.

Wanted a water birth first time round, had an emergency CS. Next time round, fought for a natural birth in a midwife-led centre (was DESPERATE not to have to spend time on the post-natal ward afterwards which is the only REALLY BAD THING about having a CS). Had an emergency CS.

Will always wonder what a natural birth would have been like but am so grateful there was a 'plan B'.

Have to say I was surprised at how quickly you can be up and about after a CS.

Would choose a CS next time round if I was to have another.

Good luck with the birth goes well whichever way you wind up with.

Essentially i am pro-Choice but unfortunately this debate polarises.but a live birth & live happy mum is what matters.

Totally agree with scottishmummy!!

I have had 2 sections and 2 vaginal/natural deliveries.

The vaginal deliveries were just that natural. They were safer both for me and my babies. I walked out of the hospital hours after their births and was able to look after my other children without fear of my scar opening.

Your body your choice, I do find it interesting however, how many post section mums complain of complications, it appears to be more than post vaginal birth

good luck whatever you choose

I think the key to success in childbirth is not to worry about what anyone else thinks about your "performance". I remember getting a lot of praise for giving birth vaginally to one of my children without any pain relief, but it wasn't really a difficult birth. I was lucky. I think birth is a lot about luck and people make it into a performance instead.

whatever mode of arrival eg CS or squatting chanting an incantation -you are still a mum

caesareans are fine, just different, no pain at the time, unlike vaginal delivery, but pain and limitation afterwards.

I had an emergency CS with DS1 - so not what I'd planned but he was distressed and they had to get him out quick for his safety.
With DS2, I had a very long and painful labour, followed by a ventouse delivery, with episiotomy and stitches.
Tbh I found it harder to recover from the stitches from the episiotomy than the CS scar.
If I had the choice to go through a birth like DS2's again or have an elective CS, I'd choose the CS. If you're fairly sure you're going to have a difficult birth ( and I know my body doesn't do birth too well, having attempted it twice) then there's no shame in opting for a CS.

Interesting..

I had a home birth (water) planed and ended up having a horrific emergency cesarean - 4 years on I'm still not myself. The hospital were inept and I had a cack-handed surgeon give me a huge (12 inch) and severe incision through all the muscles, nerves and blood vessels - I lost a lot of blood as well (ending up anaemic for months), as she didn't have time to use a cauterizing blade.

However if I ever had to give birth again I would have an 'active' cesarean - an elective with all the 'homebirth' touches I wanted, where everything was done slowly and carefully. And that's advice that is given by Janet Balaskas for those recovering from the trauma of an emergency vaginal and emergency / crash cesarean birth.

There can be wonderful cesarean births, as well as vaginal ones.

It's all about how much control you feel you have over the process, and how respected you feel in your decisions.

Recovery can be difficult for all kinds of birth, and sometimes a change from how you had a previous birth can lay to rest all the ghosts of the previous birth.

Good luck whichever way your next birth occurs - I'm glad you are open minded and have support - it's invaluable whichever way your baby's birth turns out.

With a difficult vaginal delivery you get pain and limitation afterwards too...

zazen. You are so right.

I personally only think that people are a bit about c-sections when the mum is a healthy with no history and ops for an elective c-section because she thinks it's an easier, preferable option so books herself into the Portland (or equivalent). Yeah, hands up, I find it hard to get my head round the too posh to push crew. I am NOT anti c-sections though.

it was the note being able to drive for 6 weeks after caesarean section that scuppered me, for dd2,

I'm not sure I'd describe myself as 'anti c section' as such as obv they are sometimes life saving medical procedures. I would like to see hospitals working hard to reduce their em c section rates in particular, some hospitals do debriefs after every em c section for example. I'd like to see women's choices being informed choices, with all major pros and cons presented, including the knock on effects a c section can have on future fertility/pregnancy.
my first baby was born by em c section and it was hideous, but having seen friends bouncing around days after their planned c sections I wonder if planned c sections in particular are easier to recover from or if I am just a bit of an operation wuss. ds1 also had breathing issues after birth which I found out much much later are linked to birth by c section in particular. don't know if that is mentioned for example as one of the risks?

Imo, an elective section has got to be far less risky than Jivegirl's horrific first birth.

isn't it true that private hospitals don't cover for vaginal deliveries, thereby making mums prefer a caesarean?

<<well i am sure it used to be>

Not to posh to push but too smart to stretch

When I opted for a c-section my consultant told me recovery after vaginal birth can sometimes be just as long as after a c-section. Especially mentally. And I think she is right. You always talk about long recoveries after c-sections, but at least personally I know of more people who struggle with both physically and mentally recoveries after a viganal birth. I also know several babies born disabled after vaginal birth and none at all born disabled after an elective c-section, but I don't have the stats.

bringmesunshine, so you're smarter than those of us who've had a vaginal birth?

all hospitals NHS or not have liability insurance for births - corporate insurance

because I'm a wimp and very squeamish and the idea of surgery TERRIFIES me!

I am not even vaguely anti c section but I can't stand it when people use phrases like "Too smart to stretch" I find that as annoying as people who have had c sections must find "too posh to push' Why compare the two?

I've done it both ways and the recovery from my emergency c-section was a damned sight easier than from my VBAC, second degree tear, haemorrhage, etc etc. In the unlikely event of me needing to choose it'll be an elective c for sure.

My sister had one birth with an epidural - long road to recovery. One without - with nothing! - painful BUT she was up and in the shower minutes after, enjoying her new baby... . An ideal birth - but sadly that is the exception to the rule. Any medicalisation seems to make it more difficult in the long run. But look at us. The majority of us and our babies survive these days. That can't be bad.

I remember going on the hospital tour before the birth of DS1 and giving the operating room where they do the c-sections a cursory glance and thinking "well, I won't be needing that". Little did I know...

'Any medicalisation seems to make it more difficult in the long run. '

Not necessarily.

Psychologically it took me far, far longer to recover from the trauma of the pain I felt with a drug free delivery than from my epidural/forceps delivery.

Like I said before, Childbirth is a messy old business any way you look at it.

reviewing all these posts it seems there is no one way we can swap anecdotal stories til cows come home but do what is right for you is that not what empowering women and birth choice is about?

I have had 4 CS's and no vaginal births. My first and third were horrific experiences, my 2nd and 4th quite good.
But in all 4 cases the recovery was slow compared to women in the hospital who had had vaginal births. Crucially, on my return home, this time I was unable to lift my 3 year old which didn't help with the sibling rivalry issue!

Lyra - poss slightly off topic but IME we were actively discouraged from even thinking about cs - even emergency cs - being a realistic possibility, both at midwife appointments and at our hospital tour. It wasn't mentioned at all on the tour (though there was much talk of birthing pools etc).

At no point were we talked through what would happen should an emergency cs be necessary, which has surely got to make the trauma all the worse if you are in that situation. Seems very wrong.

For what it's worth (and obviously this is just anecdotal) I discussed elective cs with my midwife - well I say discussed, she immediately dismissed it as "it's not the 'easy option' you know". In retrospect a cs would probably have been safer for my DD, who became distressed during labour due to the cord being wrapped around her neck several times, and had a difficult (and panicky) episiotomy and ventouse birth.

I had an ecs with dd, she was born at 16.16hrs and I was up out of bed at 6.am next day to go to special care to feed her (got told of by midwifes to get back in bed) but had no real problems only had pain when people made me laugh

As has been said before... It's your body, your baby, do what you feel is right for you.

I certainly would consider ec if I had more dc.

Pixelherder, it was a very scary experience mainly because I had so little information. No-one discussed it with me and I'd only glanced at the caesarean pages in the pregnancy and birth book. I just didn't expect to have one. Given the percentage of women who end up having an emergency CS, there really should be more information.

i had private expensive poncey birth classes and they were vehmently anti CS all chanting an incantation, visualising and getting centered etc. they were very "i am woman" competitive that a good birth was pain free no analgesia, preferably squatting in ythe organic forest

Anyone who elects for a c section must be brave-I was terrified at the thought! I can see that if you get to the point of an emergency one then you are past caring, but I had never had an operation or been cut open so was a nervous wreck at the thought! When my baby was breech I spent ages hanging upside down off my bed as the midwife said it would give more room to turn! After all the effort, he turned when I was standing upright. I felt that I was walking on cloud 9 afterwards at the thought of not having an operation!

To the person who said they could drive 11 days after c-section. Yes, I think some people physically can - but I think you would be uninsured if you had an accident.

Side issue.

Generally, all things being equal I think people should be encouraged to try a vaginal birth. BUT esp in case where someone has had a traumatic previous vaginal delivery there is no question they should be allowed access to a c-section. And noone should be judged for the birthing choices (Except maybe these women who chose c-section at 36 weeks so they don't get stretch marks and stretched vaginas. Get over yourselves...)

I was determined not to have a c-section. No idea why. But I was also determined not to have an episiotomy and I ended up with one of those and I survived. I am glad that I had 3 normal births but if an emergency arose I think I'd have accepted a CS with open arms (so to speak). I did recover very quickly though which can't be said of the only woman I know who had a Cs (elective not emergency).

I was very anti-c-section having had 3 and determined number 4 would be a natural birthg. Well it was and she suffered a lack of oxygen and is severely brain damaged. If I hadn't bought into the whole earth mother thing I'd of had another section and she would be normal.
And those who encouraged me to try for a vaginal birth haven't been in touch since

and I still cant sit and need my fanjo repaired even though it has been 4 years.

Turniphead1 that is incorrect - the 6 weeks until you're insured again is an urban myth. You are fit to drive again (& therefore covered by your insurance) as soon as you can perform an emergency stop.

The only people I know (in real life, the internet is a different matter) you've had ongoing & disabling health issues resulting from childbirth are those who've had complicated vaginal deliveries and everytime I hear of their problems I'm silently thankful for my c-sections.

Oh riven, that's awful.

I stand corrected Minster on the c-section insurance thing. Always thought that was true.

Thanks SO much to everyone, you've really made my mind up and given me the courage to ask for what I know is right for me and my baby!

PIxelherder, Lyra, I think the points you've made are really interesting. Why would hospitals and midwives essentially prefer to shield the truth and not discuss emergency c-sections, and dismiss anyone who wants one as someone choosing the 'easy option'?

I beat myself up for a long time after the birth of my DD (and still do) as I found it such a traumatic experience, yet others in my antenatal class seemed to have breezed through it with no problem. It wasn't until the consultant looked through my notes at my booking in appointment with number 2 (he essentially read them out to me!) that I realised that it wasn't all in my imagination - it really was a difficult birth and I was lucky to have a perfectly healthy daughter at the end of it (if only with a mangled scalp after the ventouse!)

Lots of people seem to be scared of the thought of being cut open - that doesn't worry me one little bit! I'm more petrified of being in a room full of people on emergency mode, wielding scissors round my delicate bits, yanking a delicate 6lb baby out with a sink plunger and everyone covered in blood whilst I nearly black out in pain!!

Scottish mummy - I was totally in the mindset of hippy music, candles, water and homebirth all the way. Don't even get me started on fecking hypnobirthing... GRRRRRR!!!!!!

It's such a relief to actually hear of some positive C-section stories at last - thank you! I will keep you all updated after the consultant appointment next week...

Claire

One of our NCT classes (very lavender scented, earth mother-type instructor) focused on what happens at an emergency cs, who is in the theatre, what they do, what instruments are used - mind you, I didn't really care by the time I got to have my em cs, just wanted it done and dusted! But it was VERY helpful to know beforehand what was going on, and something you might want to mention if you're doing classes and they haven't gone over it yet.

minister both the midwife and my car insurance when I rang them said i wouldnt be insued for 6 weeks.

6 weeks is the general period advised to allow deep tissue healing and ability for full unrestricted movement and ability to perform emergency stop.Check your insurance cover to see there are any restrictions about driving after a Caesarean, some companies require your GP to certify you fit to drive.the nhs baby book 2006 did advise 6wk wait prior to commenceing driving

however it is not a definitive rule, most people do wait this length of time. depends on your individual insurance

After my C-section eight months ago, the advice from the hospital was it is fine to drive after two weeks, obviously so long as you feel fit to. I called my insurance company previous to going in, they didn't need to know that I was having a C-section. This six week thing is maybe old advice but still bandied about, I think to put people off C-sections.

Having had a crash section, and then an elective, which may or may not have been entirely necessary, I believe it's my body, and I should be able to make my own decisions about what happens to it.

I can't understand why C-sections are so frowned upon, and it made me quite cross when I felt as though I had to justify my reasons for electing to have a C-section second time around. I decided the best option was to just avoid mentioning it! And each to their own, but I don't have any regrets about having never experienced the final stages of childbirth.

I also think that most of us don't take the C-section option lightly, and are fully aware of all the risks. So after weighing up the pros and cons it usually is the best option for that particular woman.

I was driving after three weeks no problem. Tried to after two, but was a bit too sore!

My sister had a planned C-section because of the baby's large size and medical condition (which was corrected by major surgery at 4 months after birth). She is very glad she did it. It minimized the trauma for her and the baby. Because the c-section was planned, there was no frenzy. Her consultant did the operation. And yes, she could drive 3 weeks later. No stigma, because she had the C-section in the U.S.

"I have noticed that there is always a group of people who are anti the way you decided to give birth.
The anti c section people
The anti epidural people
The people who are quick to call those who do it with no pain relief martyrs.
People who think homebirths are crazy"

Hmmmm......

So - if you are one of those people who are concerned about the increased rates of intervention associated with epidural birth and you express your thoughts on this issue - does this automatically put you into the 'anti-epidural' camp? Or if you worry about the fact that the c-section rate has nearly doubled in the last 10 years without corresponding decreases in stillbirth - does that put you into the 'anti-c section group'?

Is the only 'politically correct' opinion to have on any of these things is not to have an opinion at all, except to say 'whatever floats your boat'?

I'm all for maternal choice when it comes to mode of birth or pain relief, but anyone who knows anything about the way birth is managed in this country and who cares about the health of women and babies, should have something to say about the unnecessarily awful and dangerous experiences of vaginal birth ending in emergency c-section that so many women are having right now in the UK.

I think it's a very cruddy situation when we can't even discuss our concerns about these things without being labelled as being misogynists (aka madamez's post), or as judgemental towards individual mothers.

I had a crash section with DD and was totally unprepared for it. As others have said I had no idea what the statistics were and so just skimmed over the pages in the pregnancy book and it wasn't even mentioned in out antenatal classes.
As it was by the time it came to the section I didn't give a toss what they did, I just wanted my baby out alive. I am so thankful that we have the option to have c-sections. Years ago my baby and I would probably have died. I had PTSD and PND afterwards and struggled to bond with DD. I had counselling after the birth, once to get over it and again later to enable me to think about trying for another baby.
When it came to having baby 2 I knew that there was no way I could put myself through that level of anxiety and trauma again. So I opted for an "unnecessary" elective section. When people say "too posh to push" it makes me sad, I really believe the number of women who choose to have surgery just to preserve their fanjos is very rare.
A healthy baby and a happy mummy are vital, all this judging over childbirth methods is insane.

Incidentally, the elective section was very calm and lovely. With both I was home on day 3 (couldn't wait to escape - I hate hospitals ) I didn't drive until 5 weeks post-op though as I wasn't confident I could do an emergency stop. Would hate to have an accident and kill someone in my eagerness to be driving again... My insurance company did say it was entirely my decision when I called both times.

I'm 26 weeks with DC2 at the mo and have an elective booked. I know that it's the most sensible thing to do, but have a nagging feeling that I'm copping out. Copping out of what though? My only conclusion is that I feel that I should go through the pain, discomfort and uncertainty of a vaginal birth. Why though?

Yes, I'm sure the recovery is faster and if all goes well, a vaginal birth is better all round, but after a fairly traumatic time last time, ending in an emergency cs - by far the easiest bit of labour - a c section - and a planned one at that with none of the rushing around of the medics, exhaustion on my part after a long labour and worry for DD - feels like the safer option. Even after a difficult time last time with scar problems, my recovery was still easier and quicker than friends who had average times giving birth vaginally.

Im due anytime now (if only baby would listen!) and I'm not anti c-section, Id rather not have one but thats because I am a little freaked out by the cutting (although I cant imagine that V-birth will be much better..) and the post op healing can be a bit painful I've heard.

However I know that things dont always go exactly as planned (both my SILs and a number of friends had emergency C-sections) so i made a point of getting the infomation. Wasn't given a lot in anti-natal classes as the emphasis was on natural birth, however when we got our induction date the consultant explained everything about what they would do and when/why they would do c-section so although its not my first choice I'm happy for it to happen if that means I get baby out ok and Im ok.

I think people can be anti C section because they compare the 'risks' of a C section to the risks of a normal birth (and by that many people assume uncomplicated). Unfortunately, for a lot of us, normal births do go wrong and the ramifications of that can last for years. I'm still not right, 18 months on, still needing treatment etc ... I know other women who have bad vaginal births who have had similar issues, sometimes with problems lasting years afterwards, but never heard of anyone who has problems with a C section lasting years afterwards.

If there's no reason to suspect that you'll have a bad birth, then personally, I'd go for a vaginal birth, but given that that is not your history, I would be looking at my options very carefully. Like you, I had a third degree tear, and personally I would never have another vaginal birth again (but then docs told me I wouldn't have to - too risky).

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

I am personally terrified of being opened up in a dirty NHS hospital by a surgeon that I have never met. Pushing a baby out through my fanjo is scary enough but at least I won't get MRSA that way!

If there are no contra-indications to a vaginal birth, I don't think women should be able to choose a CS unless they pay privately.

Very unreasonable of you. if a woman's surgeon believe she has a legitimate reason for CS (inc fear) then yes she should get it on NHS

Jocesar - if you think pushing a baby out of your fanjo will mean you avoid MRSA, you'd better hope that you don't meet any complications (episiotomy, tears etc.) because believe me, I didn't have a c-section first time around but there was still plenty of cutting and blood!

Plus you're highly unlikely to have met any of the hospital staff attending you in labour full stop, let alone a surgeon (which is what makes hospital births so rubbish - what's the point of having a community midwifery service only to have the continuity of care end abruptly when you go into labour and get treated by hospital midwives who have never seen you before and never will again?)

im not anti c section.
id prefer not to be cut open if its avoidable, ta.
but if it was a better decision - on balance of all the facts in an individual case - for me to have one than not, then id have one.

whats so hard about that?

Because it's major surgery, elective or emergency, and has all the risks that major surgery brings with it.

Plus should you want to give birth vaginally again, you can't.

I don't think C-section is the easy way out.

Having said all that jivegirl, given your history I can understand why you might think it the easy option. I'm sorry to hear you had such a hard time.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the very best of luck with your birth.

Thanks Winky,

Although I understood that having a section didn't rule out VB in the future (not that I am too worried - 2 will be more than enough for me!)

Well, Ive spent the last 3 months hoping transverse baby would turn to avoid CS (it has, today, finally!) - not because I'm anti CS but because I would like to avoid major abdominal surgery if at all possible. However, an experience like the OPs and I will be quite happy to have CS next time and balls to whatever anyone else thinks. I will do whats best for me and my baby. I think there is a little bit of a matyrdom complex among a very small minority of mothers who think that if you haven't had a vaginal birth (preferrably without pain relief) you've somehow copped out of doing it properly. While I respect others' opinions and their right to have them, my opinion is that the prize is the same at the end, however you chose to do it. And before anyone shouts at me, I am one of those who hopes to get throught it all with no pain relief or intervention in a MW led unit. Because that's what I want.

I think, in some circs, women have to fight quite hard to avoid a cs that they personally don't want, and that determination probably translates into blanket anti-cs.

I'm fairly anti planned cs in women who are hoping to have more children. C-sections have so far given me 2 premature babies, a hysterectomy, a 16-pint transfusion, and a delightful 10 inch scar that zigzags out of the top of my jeans. Lovely.

But without the second c-section I'd be dead and so would my baby.

Fabsmum , like it or not there are groups of people who are anti certain things- you might not be one but believe me they exist.
I have had 3 natural , pain relief free births and have come across people who have told me I am a martyr and have nothing to be proud of and sneered at my choice, I have had people tell me I am being selfish for choosing a homebirth and that I am not putting my baby's safety first. Equally I have read posts on here that accuse people who have chosen a c section of copping out.
Whatever method you choose to give birth their will be those who will disagree with your choice and are only too keen to tell you how wrong or foolish or unecessary it was. There will also be those who have their own reasons for not choosing that way and are able to articulate these without being patronising or judgemental about it.

Elkat - now you have heard of someone with problems from a cs that will last forever.

Elkat - with respect, there's been some large scale good quality research recently comparing outcomes of elective c-sections for low risk mums, with the outcomes for low risk mums opting for vaginal birth. This research has found that outcomes are better for vaginal births for both mother and baby, even when take into account all the vaginal births that end in emergency c-section.

For me though the basic issue is one of care. I don't think so many women would want or need c-sections if they got better care in labour.

I have heard too many stories from mums who've had badly mismanaged vaginal births - women who've been left alone in labour for hours, been induced and left labouring on an antenatal ward with no pain relief, been marooned on a bed strapped to a monitor for hours on end... exausted, frightened, starving....you name it... and then these women end up in theatre feeling profoundly grateful for surgical intervention that they may well not have needed had they been supported to labour effectively.

hatrick - I think people express these views because they genuinely don't know the facts though. People who think you are a martyr for not opting for pain relief often don't know very much about the possible short and long term side effects of the drugs used in labour; people who are anti homebirth are not aware that there is evidence which shows it to be at least as safe as hospital birth for low risk mums.

If you are made to feel it's politically incorrect to express these views in the first place then there's no opportunity for anyone to challenge your beliefs!

I genuinely believe that most people are not nasty or judgemental - they honestly feel they have good reasons for their views, that's it's not just prejudice and bigotry.

I know I'm probably going to be flamed for saying this, but I often feel some women have unresolved insecurities or issues surrounding their birth/feeding choices or experiences that makes them take the views of others very personally, to see a personal attack or judgement where none is intended.

Fabsmum - I totally agree. For me the worst part was being out of control, felt like I was a slab of meat and the midwife couldn't give a toss. A little bit of reassurance and a gentler bedside manner would have worked wonders (for me at least )

I wonder if hospitals are more prone to forcing emergency sections because ultimately they don't want their neck on the line if they've persevered with a VB at the request of the mother and something goes wrong??

Sorry, I'm talking crap. You can give birth vaginally after a C-section. I did! Was distracted but it can be a bit of a battle with the consultant to persuade them to let you even labour because they're worried about the scar rupturing which is very rare in itself.

jivegirl - my personal feeling as that almost all midwives and doctors strive in their own way for the best outcomes for mums and babies. I don't believe that most staff involved in maternity care are at all cavalier about c-section rates, but many midwives are burned out by the pressure under which they're working.

Unfortunately the system makes it impossible for them to provide the really safe, good quality care that women need that would result in a lower c-section rates. If you have one midwife looking after 4 or 5 women in labour in an environment that's geared towards routine intervention it's inevitable that it's going to affect the progress of normal labour for many mums in a very unhelpful way.

It's perfectly possible to have a problem-free CS. Mine was an emergency but after it was all done and dusted, I recovered in no time. The scar hurt when I coughed or laughed for a few days but there were no bf issues, no wound infection, healed quickly. The same can't be said of my VBAC. I'd definitely have another section if I had a third, because birth number 2 was so awful. The episiotomy scar hurt far longer than the cs scar.

Planned sections are bliss. Wouldn't have it any other way. People who are interested in why or if I choose to have a section really should find something better to do.

With respect though Lyra, a lot of the difficulties women experience with VBAC, particularly the number of VBAC mums having assisted births, are connected to the original c-section. The additional monitoring (which impacts on mobility and ability to manage pain), plus the extra anxiety about the risk of scar rupture and the time limits put on the length of labour, particularly on second stage - well, it's hardly likely to contribute to an easy birth is it?

Fabsmum, I was monitored but mobile throughout my 24 hour labour. Second stage - I got to 2 hours of pushing with no sign of DS2 coming out. That's when they decidd on the ventouse delivery. I don't think it was connected to the emergency CS. My body is just crap at giving birth. It's a shame because I had two textbook pregnancies with very few problems.

Athene - I haven't got anything better to do right now so maybe you could humour me....

Hypothetically, if someone could promise you a straightforward vaginal birth and really good care, do you still think you'd prefer an elective section?

And a lot of complicated births attributed to c-section are actually complications of the vagnal birth.

I don't really think c-section surgery is that major to be honest. It took the surgeon a lot longer to replace ACL than it di to get my baby out. I suppose my belly will never be the same, but then neither will my knee.

Fabsmum (sorry butting in, the question wasn't directed at me), if I could be guaranteed a problem-free vaginal birth, I definitely go for it over a cs if I had a third. But knowing how my body reacts to birth, it's unlikely.
I do think some women just aren't built to give birth without huge complications.

"if someone could promise you a straightforward vaginal birth and really good care"

No one can. No one can promise I won't tear, or the baby won't go into fetal distress because they couldn't be arsed to find out if the cord was round her neck, or a million other things that can and do go wrong.

Sections carry less risk on the NHS. That's not what they tell you because of course the vaginal birth is cheaper and they have their udget to look after.

"Fabsmum, I was monitored but mobile throughout my 24 hour labour. Second stage - I got to 2 hours of pushing with no sign of DS2 coming out. That's when they decidd on the ventouse delivery. I don't think it was connected to the emergency CS"

And you don't think being closely watched in labour, and having the anxiety of having had a previous c-section (plus the internal feeling that your body is 'crap' at giving birth) impacted on your ability to get your baby out?

I think the (quite understandable but profoundly unhelpful) fear of things going wrong, a lack of privacy and constant watching (which is NOT the same as constant care) CAN hugely impact on your body's ability to produce oxytocin. And the mobility that's possible when you're on a monitor doesn't in my view constitute true freedom of movement. How is it possible to labour instinctively under these conditions?

Seriously Lyra, your body is NOT crap at giving birth!

"Sections carry less risk on the NHS. That's not what they tell you because of course the vaginal birth is cheaper and they have their udget to look after"

And your proof for that is.......?

Do you think we'd all be better off having c-sections?

I do think it is. Both times I needed intervention to get the babies out safely. I was monitored, but intermittently. I was able to walk around the labour ward, stopping for contractions, got into all kinds of positions etc. But I dilated very slowly. Tbh, I wasn't worried about the scar rupturing because I know that's rare, and I was sure I'd be able to do it myself the second time round. But after 24 hours it became apparent that he wasn't going to come out without a bit of help.

No, I don't think we are all better off with sections. But I think that those who want them should not have to endure being chastised for the desire.

I think women should have the right to choose.

no-one can promise any woman an uneventful birth with a happy outcome though, that is the truth whether you give birth by c section or vaginally. anyone who does promise that is lying.

I've only skim read the whole thread. Mine was an emergency c-section after an extremely long labour and I found the operation and the recovery truly awful. Firstly the epidural was not effective and the bitch anethetist (sorry can't spell it) did not believe me resulting in extremely humilating treatment from her and the sensation of the operation was like being repeatedly punched in the stomach. However I think planned sections might be under spinal which would be better.

Then not being able to sit hold and pick up my own baby in the ward was heartbreaking. My call button wasn't working and no-one realised until the second day so I thought the midwives were just ignoring me - had to shout when they passed me which wasn't often or occasionally they'd notice baby was crying and I couldn't pick her up! Then my scar reopened when I got home and I was bed-bound for another week or so and still couldn't pick up the baby. I really could not drive for 6 weeks and when I started I felt all the muscles pulling which was horrible.

I'm sorry to be so negative - I know not all c-section ops are like that but it is major surgery and the risks are there. I think my very long labour did not help my recovery. Planned sections anecdotally I think have much easier recoveries. I don't think birth is easy whatever way you do it, but informed choice is the way forward.