Any opinions?

The health visitor has asked me to wait another week as she is still gaining weight well but she is cranky (and has been for 2 weeks or so), waking frequently at night, grabbing my toast (!) and crying when she cant have it.

I believe she is genuinely hungry, especially at night.

Health visitor said to put her in her own room instead as that could be why is waking so frequently but personally I would rather satisfy her hunger and have her near us?

I know that 17 weeks is meant to be the earliest you start it but what are the negatives for starting it at 17 weeks?

if she's hungry why not give her milk?
[baffled]

i thought you were supposed to sleep with the baby in your room for a year?

oops forgot to post reast of message. Is baby formula fed?

your health visitor is giving out-dated advice regarding feeding and sleep patterns.

disregard her advice. Whether breast or bottlefeeding, she will do fine on milk alone till 26 wks.

Early weaning is linked to various bowel ailments in later life.

Baby's sleep pattern change as the brain and nervous system rapidly develops in a child's first year.

Your baby is normal.

You may want to read the book 'the No Cry Sleep Solution' which has a very good early chapter on the changes that happens to a baby in the first year.

She could be grabbing your toast just because its there and loks interesting as opposed to because she's hungry. If you think she's hungry then upping the milk intake is the best idea I think.

The frequent waking could be for many reasons, not just hunger. Am inherently uneasy about the thought of starting them on solids at 17 weeks even though people say you can. I only moved my ds to solids when he was still hungry after a full milk feed.

pamelat this is v much tongue in cheek, but i always remember reading on here someone saying something along the lines of "if you were snorting lines of coke your baby would be making a grab at that too, doesn't mean she's ready for class a drugs"

my dd is 23 weeks now and is exactly the same, has been from about 16wks, just trying to ride it out tbh. not saying it's easy but just give more milk and you'll get there. nhs guidelines are 6 months your hv should know that. see here

your milk has more calories than solids, and milk will remain the main part of her diet until she is 1.

I think there is a gowth spurt at this age?

Both my DSs went through a night feeding frenzy ay 4-5 months, although they were very easily distracted during the day and big feeds were a nightmare when we were out and about(thus maybe making up for it during the night)

PMSL caz

ok will ride it out, sometimes you just need the reassurance.

On Weds night I got 3 hours sleep and felt like a zombie, am mixing breast and bottle feeding (she was breast fed until 12 weeks but for various reasons I couldnt keep this up). I know that introducing solids isnt the sleep solution but I suppose I am hopeful.

I havent had more than 5 hours sleep for 2 weeks, and thats in total, never at once. Starting to feel run down and generally rubbish, mouth ulcers etc etc.

Have been to buy a black out blind

I thought she was meant to sleep in our room for the first 6 months but every mum I have spoken to has said that it was only when they moved their baby out (some as early as 6 weeks) that they got a good nights sleep. I can just imagine that I will be walking about a lot more!!

She is hungry after some of her feeds, breast and formula but not after each one. She screamed for more after 7oz of formula this morning at 430am so I breast fed her, she was ok 20 minutes later but wide awake and would not go back to sleep (hence black out blind)

On the positive side she has slept for 2 hours this lunch (unaided) and hasnt done that for 3 weeks, maybe she has rediscovered sleeping?!

Thank you

Mrs badger - hi, I obviously do give her milk but am starting to worry it doesnt satisfy her.

She wants feeding every hour and a half or so in the day and 2 hourly at night. I suppose there is no danger in "too much" milk though?

I have my own views which don't follow guidelines to the letter. All babies are different. Some may be happy on milk until 7-8mths, others may want solids at 4mths. Go with your instincts.
I moved my dd1 into her own room at 6wks, by 8wks she slept from 2230-7. Coincidence?
She started waking inthe night again at 15wks so I started weaning at 16wks and the wakings stopped.
It is true there are more calories in breast milk than the same quantity of solids. However, the solids make them feel full for longer and thus they don't wake as much IME. This is why my dd1 slept better on ff than bf, changed at 6wks from bf to ff.

No danger in too much milk, however, lots of problems with too little sleep If I am still feeding dd2 at the same age with the same frequency as she does now at 17wks then she will be getting weaned.

sorry that should read 7wks not 17wks

I think the really tough thing about all of this is that little babies aren't meant to sleep for hours and hours at a time. For most of them, their natural pattern is to wake up a lot and feed a lot at night.

I gather there are concerns about "fixing" babies' sleep so that they sleep longer. For example if you put them in a different room they'll sleep "better" but there is a worry that this deep sleep is what increases the risk of cot death for some babies.

I just don't think there are easy answers - and sleep deprivation is very grim as I know because mine were terrible sleepers early on. I'm not at all saying that we should all just put up with it and get on with life.

I just feel uncomfortable about the idea of sleep as a problem to fix. I think there's more to it than that.

Over time and across a whole range of cultures, babies sleep with their parents. Babies need to do this!! I'm not sure why we are so keen to get them sleeping away from us so soon. The risk of SIDS is reduced if they are with you. For me, that's the end of the discussion!!

beansprout babies need sleep just as we do as they use the time to process information learned while awake. Babies who are not sleeping well (the OP said feeding every 1.5hrs etc so obviously not sleeping much) become overloaded/stimulated and find it harder to settle. Also, I found that when my dd1 did this continual feeding she fed less well because she fell asleep on the breast before she had taken a good bf. Then it becomes a vicious circle of continual feeding with little sleep.
My dd1 started sleep training at 5wks and since then has been a fantastic sleeper, now 2.4yrs.

Nobody would deny that the best place for baby is in your room, but there are things you can do to help guide the baby into a more sociable pattern

Pamelat, when I had feeding/sleeping issues with LO I co-slept. Some might say its not an ideal solution, but it got us over a tricky stage.

She sleeps better on her own in her cot, so it was a temporary thing.

Ride it out and just give her milk, milk and more milk. If she drains 7ozs and is still hungry give her some more

Babies are pretty good at self-regulating their intake - she will take what she wants and needs. If she wants 9 or 10 ozs then let her have it; it has far more calories and nutrients than baby rice.

"babies need sleep just as we do as they use the time to process information learned while awake."

babies brains are still developing and their sleep and brain wave patterns are vastly different from that of an adult's. Babies are designed to wake up often during the night for at least the first year. There is ample research out there that shows this. there is also a lot out there showing that sleeping for long stretches during the night may put some babies at a higher risk of cot death.

I agree that they do need sleep to recharge and develop their brains but that does not mean that this sleep pattern has to more closely mimic what that of a 5 or a 25 year old's sleep pattern is like in order for them to have optimal sleep.

Quite right, kiskidee....not all babies are the same, and some do develop sleeping patterns that permit them to sleep for longer hours, but it is not something we really should hurry babies into. It's very hard, though, as there is a cultural expectation that long sleeps are essential to enable parents to sleep - and with different night-time 'management' this doesn't have to be the case.

Giving a baby extra food earlier than he/she needs it in order for him/her to acquire a non-physiological sleeping pattern seems to me to be wrong...and it often doesn't work, either.

this has worried me - my 11 week old dd sleeps from 11.30pm or so till about 6 or 7, i didn't train her - she just does it. but if it increases risk of cot death should i wake her in the night?

if that is your baby's sleep pattern which she developed on her own, ie as long as you have been responsive to her waking during the night before she started to sleep this long, I would not worry about cot death because of having a longer stretch of sleep.

do you breast or formula feed?
does she sleep in your room or in her own room?

I ask as breastfeeding and roomsharing both seem to reduce the incidence of cot death in babies.

LookingForwardToSummer - my dd did this at that age or thereabouts too - she is bf and slept next to my bed so i didn't worry too much - just enjoy it cos in our case it didn't last!!

All the current guidelines say that babies should have milk and nothing else until 26 weeks. There is no good reason for introducing solids early, and the practice has been linked to allergies and gut problems. Even once you start giving solids, milk should be a baby's main food until 12 months.

She is still a tiny baby - give her milk if she's hungry.

On a flippant note - I'm sure she's interested in the steering wheel of the car, but that doesn't mean she's ready to drive!

Have you tried taking her into bed with you?

My DS hardly slept at all at night. He just liked to feed, feed, feed! We bought a kingsize bed in the end so we could all get better sleep.

Growth spurts were the worst time and I have bitter sweet memories of long nights on the sofa with baby and laptop. He'd feed, I'd mumsnet. But he slept during the day so I'd snooze then.

I'd summarise sleep with a newborn with the following observation: sometimes your baby will sleep for longer periods than others and by coincidence, this may coincide with darkness. Day and night have no meaning to a newborn so you might as well let go of it.

DS is now 18 months and has just about got the hang of day and night, although he likes to get up at 5.30am and I don't. He still likes to breastfeed at night sometimes and he eats plenty of solids, believe me!

The thing with 17 weeks is that some babies will be physcailly ready (As in their gut is able to take solids with no problems) at 17 weeks, all babies will be ready by 26 weeks.
So the guidelines say to go for 26 weeks as then you can be sure your baby is ready for food, you cannot see inside their gut, so cannot be sure they are ready at 17weeks, it's just possible they might be.
HTH

I weaned DS1 at 4 months as per the advice 6 years ago. Having just weaned DD2 at 6 months I feel that with hindsight, it seems far more natural to do so at 6 months. 4 months seems too young with hindsight and experience.

I agree that babies aren't born with a knowledge of day and night, however, from my experience they can be taught the difference. With both my dd's I started to put them in the bedroom at 7pmish to sleep around 6-7wks. Both took a week to realise that it was sleep time when they got into their sleeping bags and went in their moses basket in a dark room, following their bath. With dd2 who is 7wks she never slept during the evenings downstairs but after a week of being put upstairs in the evenings she now doesn't stir until she needs a feed at about 130am. I doubt this would have just occurred without persuasion

Thank you all (again).

I guess its hard when you have the "comparing" thing going on. Of the 16 mums in my antenatal group (babies are all within 2 weeks of being the same age) there is only mine and 1 other that is not sleeping from 1030pm until 7am (or 7pm to 7am in a couple of cases!) and a lot of the mums around me have sworn that its because of solids, or the own room idea.

I obviously don't want to put my baby at any risk (my cousin was a victim of cot death years ago, when guidance was very difference and risks far greater, so I am quite conscious of all the current advice). The health visitor seemed to think that 4 months would be fine, I suppose the advantage she has is in "knowing" my daughter. Its very confusing to have such conflicting advice, especially when I am tired and it comes from a so called expert (and my husband is more than keen).

I am going to wait a week or so and see whether her eating or sleeping improves, if not then I will re consider early weaning once more (at least she will be a few weeks older, I will be about a decade older!). I dont think its "natural" for her to be so hungry, but like a lot of you say, it could be a prolonged growth spurt.

No one ever said mother hood was easy! I just wish that the experts could be consistent in their advice, that would help

Are you on one of the Post Natal Groups on here? Perhaps drop a post on the relevant one and find out where their babies are at? You'll get a different perspective than your RL AN group I'm sure.

You sound like you're pretty sensible, and that whatever you do will be considered and well thought out.

Good luck

pamela - I'm sure not everyone's baby is sleeping through the night everyone classes sleeping through as something different IYSWIM.

My DD2 had solids at 6 months, at 8 months she was on 3 good meals a day plus a few snacks plus BFs, she still woke in the night, solids did nothing to her sleeping.

If you don't feel ready to move her into your room then don't, I personally feel young babies should sleep in the same room as their parents.

The trouble with late weaning is that by then bf babies who have fed on demand and have always had night feeds get into the habit of night feeds rather than actually still needing them.

Trust me. Everyone else's babies are not sleeping through. They are telling you porky pies!

Also agree with welliemum that we must get away from this idea that babies are meant to sleep through. Instead of expecing babies to sleep through, we should expect husbands and partners to help out more at night. I know I know...easier said than done!

have to disagree with that tori, sorry!
maybe some babies suckle for comfort without feeding at night, I don't know, but I know my dd takes a vg feed, and as a slow weight gainer she certainly needs it

I hate to hammer the point - but the experts are consistent in their advice. Anyone who pays attention to the World Health Organization guidelines will know that babies should not have solid food before 6 months. The majority of babies who are weaned earlier than this will be fine - but some won't. And there is no way of knowing which category your baby falls into. Interest in your meals, more frequent feeds, unsettled sleep are symptoms of being a bay - they are NOT symptoms of needing solid food. They might be symptoms of needing more milk, though.

And people lie like troupers about babies sleeping habits. We have somehow arrived at a situation where having a baby that sleeps through makes you a "good mother" and your baby a "good baby". So people boost their won confidence by being economical with the truth - or interpreting 4 hours as sleeping through. This is only a tiny fraction of your life. It will get better, but at the moment accept that you are looking after a baby and that is a full time demanding job. Sleep when she sleeps, let everything else go, accept all the help you are offered, take her into bed with you - do anything that provides the greatest sleep for the greatest number of people. And appreciate her as a baby. Before you know it she'll eb a lumpen teenager and you wont be able to get her out of bed in the morning for love nor money.
And don't run even the slightest risk with her future health by giving her solids. They won't help her sleeping, I promise. Time will do that.

super post seeker

seeker, I don't think the majority of mothers lie about sleep. For me sleeping through is not about being a good mother, or expectations from other people, its about me liking sleep myself and not wanting my baby to end up being a four year old with poor sleep habits. I am also not lying about the age at which my dd1 slept from 2230-7am consistently without waking for anything- 8wks. By 12 weeks it was 7-7. She may have woken because all children wake, but over time leart to put herself back to sleep so quickly that she didn't murmur.
After a week of doing the bedtime routine with dd2 (7wks) she has tonight gone to sleep, without being rocked, cuddled, fed to sleep- she had all of these before going into her basket awake. I said night night, go to sleep sweety and left the room, she didn't murmur and went to sleep without help. Once she has practiced this, she will go back to sleep if she wakes and isn't hungry/wanting comfort.

Yes eventually time will do it, however, I have no intention of spending several years getting up 3/4/5 times per night because my dcs failed to learn how to settle themselves off to sleep when they were young. I also have no intention of spending every night doing the rocking thing/ patting/feeding to sleep.

Tori, I wish you'd had my DS2...

Not because I think you'd have fixed him - more because he'd have made you rethink quick smart!

Tori - I don't feed "on demand", I feed "on cue" and I don't feel that giving a tiny baby food or comfort in the night is a bad thing.

fwiw my dd will now self settle without feeding/patting etc, not all the time but most naps and most bedtimes

but when she wakes, she's hungry!

The trouble is that if you pick a baby up the minute it starts to snuffle because you think its hungry, if he/she isn't hungry but has just come into light sleep, you disturb them for no real reason iyswim. Obviously if the baby is upset/crying and obviously needs comfort/feeding then yes do it. I just think that with new style parenting babies are not given the chance to learn to get themselves back to sleep. We all seem to feel they have to be rocked/petted/dummy etc, etc. My dd2 was in her cot with eyes wide open but knackered- not slept from 1130-1830hrs, no dummy in as she spat it out before hand. Went to sleep- routine and practice.

PS no crying either. I soothed before hand with the dummy and rubbing tummy, just not until she went to sleep.

Never picked a baby up at the first snuffle. Ever. DS1 would've slept through far earlier than he did, were it not for the fact that every time he cut a tooth, his temperature rocketed to 41 degrees, so from 6-19m, his sleep was disturbed for a few nights every few weeks.

DS2 - well, DS2 just doesn't need sleep. He is made of boing.

hunker, emailed you.

Seeker what an absolutely fantastic post. Read it out to DP and he thought it was well; worded and spot on .

Also am excl bfeeding and co-sleeping here and it varies wether he sleeps 2 hours or 8 hours. Am not going to stress out about it though as in time he will sleep. I also have an 8 year old and what seeker says is true. Time flies by so fast, theyare only small for a short while.

Sorry tori - but have to disagree as did pretty much the same with ds1 as i am with ds2 and ds1 sleeps fine and self settles.

Ds2 is now 20 weeks and still not on solids yet although i do admit that he has grabbed bits of my plate and had lots of funb playing, sucking it. LIke banana for example, but he hasnt really digested any solids yet.

I have just put my 4 week old DS to bed, wide awake, no tears, settles himself quite happily, but I'll still be getting up a few times in the night with him, not because of every snuffle, or because he ahsn't learnt to settle himself but because he is HUNGRY FOR MILK.

It's what babies do, I think someone once said it was to do with the size of his stomach? Who knows

oh and i dont pick up ds2 at first snuffle but i do 'read' him well and i dont leave him till he is crying either. This 'new style parenting' isnt all that new as did very similar with ds1 and he is a happy content boy. I think every baby is different and you cxant force them to all follow a fixed routine as they have differing and at times complex needs.

Yep, taking cues from babies - it's how we're designed to parent - it's not new-fangled. Ever had that brain folding in on itself sensation when your baby's crying but you can't get to them for whatever reason? Hormonal - you're fighting a natural response. Some books tell you to do this - madness, proper mental to tell a mother to ignore her instincts. Yet the same sort of book will contain stuff about mothers knowing instinctively when their baby's ready for solids - what a load of wank.

So whilst I didn't pick up at the first snuffle, if I ever left DS2 until he was actually crying, he was nigh on impossible to get back to sleep (and I was all agitated from hearing him cry). Far rather pick him up while he was rousing, feed him back to sleep, get the lovely drowsy hormones myself and snooze for a few hours more.

I think it's incredibly unrealistic to expect a small baby (ie a few months old) to go 8-12 hours without something to eat or drink. Their stomachs are the size of their clenched fists and breastmilk in particular is rapidly digested as there is little waste.

I don't go that long without a drink so I wouldn't expect a tiny baby to.

(My DD3 has had a night feed since birth, regardless of how much she has had to eat or drink in the day. She has it because she is hungry. If I withold milk she cries and is unsettled for ages. If I give her milk she chugs it in minutes then goes back to sleep for hours. That implies to me that she needs it, it's not a habit. She is completely different to DD1, who slept consistently all night from a much younger age. All babies are different.)

Which is what I said, I also don't leave dd2 to get to crying point. I also said the same about all babies having different needs regarding weaning i.e. some will be ready at 4mths, others at 7mths

tori, will you please stop being selective with your memory. you have admitted that you began sleep training your dd1 at 5 or 6 weeks. she was also fully ffed by the same age as bfing was not working out for you. you mentioned below how her sleep was very poor before this time until you started to, i am partly assuming here, teach her the difference between night and day, echoes of Gina Ford, i understand, because she was continually feeding at night and was not sleeping well in the day or night time. but you have not linked this experience in with the other detail told previously and elsewhere that it was due to what you may now realise was a bad latch so your baby was not feeding effectively.
your recall in this thread has come across with the certain parts of your experience edited out which makes it all sound like early motherhood with your dd1 was a breeze. Lots of mums like myself and yourself recieved bum advice and made stupid moves early days, teh first time round. One reason I post on MN is to help other new mums avoid some of these pitfalls by giving advice based on up to date advice and hopefully, one evidence based information. Sometimes i link in my experience if it ties in with advice and if it doesn't I make that clear to other MNers.

But as i do read a lot of posts on this forum wrt to feeding and sleep, I can remember one or two discussions where you defended some pretty outdated and some plain wrong ideas about breastfeeding and sleep, based on your previous experiences and advice from HV.

As a mother who had some incredibly difficult early days with my own dd, I empathise and have spent a long time sitting on my hands as I know that this sounds like an attack on you.

I am now willing ot take the risk at sounding rude because you cannot give sleep and weaning advice based on your past experiences as the OP is a mum who is in an entirely different place from where you are or have been on this topic without backing it up with some facts from elsewhere. However, if you can find some good peer reviewed, evidence based articles which back up your experience or opinions, I am willing to listen and offer an apology, if necessary.

tori, they physically are not likely to be ready at 4 months, and if they are you won't be able to tell.

I meant all babies are different regarding their sleeping habits, not whether they are ready to wean at 4 months or not.

The thing is you just don't know what harm you may be doing by weaning early. You (not you personally just you as in anyone) can say oh I weaned my DD1 who is now 6 at age 16 weeks and she is fine. You need to come back in 30 years and tell us then whether she has Crohn's disease, coeliac disease, diabetes, IBS, ulcerative colitis etc.

They are all physically different at 4mths, have different rates of development. i.e. my baby who is approx 14lb at 7wks is exceptionally different from my next door neighbours dd who is 7lb 6oz at 5wks. The size of their stomach and maturity of it grows in line with everything else, so it is nigh on impossible to put an age guidance on things. That is why I said follow your instincts about whether LO is ready. FWIW my whole family for generations have been weaned early and with the exception of one grandmother we have no bowel related disorders in the family. I am overweight but this is down to my own poor eating habits, I was slim during my childhood/teenage years. Its anecdotal I agree, however, if the links to these things were so strong I am certain that the link would have been seen in our family.

Tori, how would anyone know if their baby's ready for solids at 4mo, without the benefit of some internal examining equipment?

Since weaning at six months does no harm to babies and weaning earlier may, isn't it better to err on the side of caution? This is a person's future health we're talking about - for the rest of their lives. For the sake of a couple of months' sleep? Crazy and selfish, imo.

tori, it's not about the size of their stomach that says they are ready for solids, just how much milk they take at each sitting.
It's about the actual stomach and kidneys themselves.

Oh also DS2 is almost 13lb at four weeks, what weight do you think I should wean him then?

If a baby is not satisfied on milk then imo its cruel to not wean. How would you like to spend your days feeling hungry? There is a point where no amount of milk is enough.

Why would the World Health Organisation be telling parents the world over to do something cruel?

Where is your research evidence for no amount of milk being enough?

Obviously you can't put a weight on weaning either, I just wanted to illustrate the differences between babies of the same age. Everything develops at different rates including gut maturity/skeletal development/muscle tone etc,etc. That is why you should go with your instincts IMO.

And why would a smidge of baby rice or a bit of carrot puree be more filling than milk, which has more calories than either of those things?

You have a "my baby's gut is now closed and ready for solid food" instinct, Tori? Cor.

If we were designed to just drink milk we would not have evolved with teeth

The first ones are called "MILK" teeth, Tori.

And they're not usually present when early weaners start - hence the "my baby hasn't got teeth so we need to puree everything to a thin paste for him" malarkey that so many people fanny about with.

It's very unusual for a young baby not to be satisfied with milk though.

The problem is that mums tend to say "oh he wasn't satisfied with his milk so I had to give him solids". What they fail to mention was that they were giving the baby 8 or 9 ounces of milk but not offering more if the baby seemed to still be hungry after the feed. If a baby drinks 9 ounces and isn't settled afterwards then give them more milk! Just because it says on the tin that the guide is xxxx amount of ounces at xxxx weeks doesn't mean you can't give them more!

tori did you realise breastmilk has about 20 calories per ounce? Any idea how much is in baby rice? and how much baby rice actually gets into a babies tummy when you first wean?

Guess what!
BM has more calories, therefore is more filling and more nutritional
Now ain't that just peachy, our body makes milk that our babies need and will satsify them until their body is capable of more!!
WOW!

Because its about how long food stays in the stomach not calorific content. At the point of weaning the baby is still having the same amount of milk plus the extra calories from food. Its only once weaning is almost complete that food calories superceed milk.

Yes and if we were designed to eat solid food at 4 months we would have a full set of teeth at 4 months...

Some babies don't get teeth until they are almost 1yo, should we all hold off weaning until 1 then

LOL Hunker

I'd like Tori to have had my DS too

He's made of boing with extra boing.

Audio specialist was asking about him the other day about his hearing test results. I told him that we attempted it 3 times (newborn several times a day in hospital), once at HV clinic, and then referred to neuro-audio clinic that DD is now at because he wouldnt stay still and/or sleep for the tests.

He said, and I quote "why didnt they just do it when he was asleep?". I did a little giggle and said "well, because he just didnt sleep for more than 25 mins at a time.......".

Tori, in your experience, which is fine for your girls, is not good enough for threads like these. Sorry, but kiskidee is right.

Great post from seeker and welliemum too.

I used to get told "Oh, I had to wean early as I had a very hungry baby" - honestly, you can just sit and say nothing and some people get their justifying their stuff faces on and start banging on...

Because, of course, I only fed mine once a week and kept them in cupboards the rest of the time. Like in soap operas.

What?? How long food stays in the stomach?? So if food stays longer in your stomach it's more nutritious?

That's tripe.

She's too young.

Not more nutritious but it keeps them more settled because they have the full feeling for longer.

DS couldnt give a flying fark about solids until 12 months.........

He's got beautiful milk teeth now.

Tori, your take on human and infant biology is interesting, but, it's not right.

If Tori had had your DS first, then my DS2, I can guarantee she wouldn't be posting as she currently is, VVV! (How did it go today? Email me?)

Sorry, Tori, but you cannot post this stuff without backing it up with better research - well, any research, other than your own rose-tinted experience.

No, I wasn't suggesting that people wait to wean till a year - though there are perfectly healthy babies who are fine without much of anything else till this age - I know of a baby who only had bmilk till 14mo and in my grandparents' day, weaning wasn't done till between 9m and a year - my great aunt was shocked that DS1 was having food at 7mo.

"Because its about how long food stays in the stomach not calorific content." Ah, I get it now, it's like that hungry baby milk and night time milk, no?

Make it harder to digest, they take longer til the next feed and sleep longer.
Artificial satisfaction rather than actually giving them what they need.

So we'll cut out some of their well needed nutrition and calories, replace it with something harder to digest, and bingo! We've done what we were meant to, got them to sleep.
I'm sure that's what nature intended....

So you are feeding them to settle them, not to provide them with key nutrition? Interesting......

Hunker, your boys are the biggest eaters I've ever come across!

As for weanign at one, well have you not heard 'food until one s just for fun'? Babies do notneed food before around a year old, it's just that they are capable from about six months and it is seen as easier if you introduce them slowly over the next six months to different foods rather than suddenly say 'Oh, you're one, time for dinner'.

There are lots of other factors involved in solids other than hunger, which given that milk has more calories is a complete red herring. For example, babies need to be able to sit up independently in order to chew and swallow without choking, which isn't likely at 4 months.

and with DS1, fwiw, we responded to his needs in the night with milk or cuddles when he needed them - he is now 2 and has never had a problem settling himself to sleep without help, sleeps through the night without problems and does not have 'bad sleep habits'.

Ah, VVVQV, a wonderful x-post, saying what rambled on about in two simple sentences

VVV, many's the time I've looked at the boys and thought thank fark it's not just me providing the calories.

They went to two parties today - DS2 sits and eats for a good chunk of any party he goes to He's such a lean thing though - not a spare ounce on him. It's the boinging he does!

baby's guts are ready to process foods other than milk at the microscopic level. I can't see how I cna look at a 4mo old baby, irregardless of his physical body size and say his gut is ready.

Just because a baby is on the 90th percentile does not mean that his gut more advanced than a baby on the 10th.

Bit of personal experience here. Dd at 4 months was given custard to eat by a well meaning friend who was saying that she was 'hungry'. DD lapped it up.

It turns out taht she is allergic to egg (found out less than a year ago) and when she was old enough for me to start to wean her properly, i discovered that she refuses anything with egg, including custard. She only took one spoon of the stuff. She is now 3 and still refuses egg and products with egg.

For me, just because a 4mo old is interested in food does not mean that he or she is ready for it. My dd hasn't eaten egg on an instictive and biological level for 3 yrs now. But she didn't seem 'ready' or 'able' to refuse it at 4 mo old.

Oh, so you just want to fill them up to make them sleep longer??

Why not feed them pizza and 8 cans of Stella then - my DH sleeps for hours after that lot!

It is a different mindset, I think - I breastfed the boys because it was important to me to do it and because I was lucky enough not to meet a health professional who hampered me enough to stop me. I weaned at 6m (bit later for DS2) because I digested enough of the research and was OK with being the sole source of nutrition that long (heck, my breasts have sustained two people for the sum of a year - I love that!) because I believed that research.

It's very difficult to argue against homespun logic like Tori's - because there's a kernel of "common sense" in there - although she's coming at the whole issue from a different angle - that of goal of sleeping through, it seems.

LOl. DD had lots and lots of teeth by 1yo but she still wasn't interested in solid foods. I suspect being allergic to cow's milk and eggs played a huge role in her choosing when they time was right for her. She didn't wean till she was 13 months and chose to wean on Peppered German Salami pilfered from my plate.

this thread has taken a turn towards the Twilight Zone.

Why is sleeping through such a flipping holy grail? We all knew when we took on motherhood that the hours were lousy and the pay even worse - but I'd far rather get up in the night to bring up a happy and secure baby than listen to him wail with the purpose of 'getting my life back'?

some babies need more night time comfort than others, some need more milk than others, them's the breaks, it's no reflection on our parenting skills.

Well hunker, well done you, I BF cos I'm a lazy bint

But, no, seriously, I get really fed up with this goal of sleeping through, what exactly have you managed in accomplishing it, really?
Putting your childs nutritional needs first? No.
Teaching your child something new and exciting?
No.
Forcing your child to sleep longer because their stomach is full as you ahev given them somehting they may not be physically ready for? Ah, that's the one, I really hope for your child's sake that they were one of the ones that is ready at 17weeks, not that you could ever tell.

Well, that too - I was too lazy to type that reason, VS

I've just read the OP.

Howzat for shit MN etiquette?

Negatives include invoking my wrath, OP, clearly

Now that's terrible, I always read at least the first five messages before I jump in with my opinion.

My bf baby was waking in the night every 2 hours until 22 weeks, then stopped, and has never woken at night since!

Don't understand the small stomach thing though coz mine would down 12oz of expressed milk in one feed at 2 weeks, and still wake 2 hours later for more!