Hiya Ellie,

Howsit all going? I had much the same struggle, and my bubs has JUST regained his birthweight + 2oz. He's 5 weeks and 5 days.

So it took a long time, and was a real struggle, but we got there in the end.

I think you need to BF as much as poss, and express to really build your supply. It took me quite a while, and was knackering but it's all now flowing well.

Hope you're managing to get some good RL support, as this really helps, too.

You're doing a great job!

I hope you let us know how the baby cafe went and that you manage to keep going.

It took us 3 days in hospital with expressed colostrum being syringe fed to get feeding sorted, but I now have a monster baby that's exclusively breastfed - he's 15lb 9 at 16 weeks so once you've got it sorted it can all go well!

ellie, I've bben away all week and have just seen this.

sending you some big hugs lovely lady. Yu have had some great advice here, and I have nothing to add really, except be assured that you are doing all the right things and that you are a great mum.

I hope you can see someone locally and that you can get some good support.

I gave DD the odd bottle in the early days to tide me over a very rough time with a nasty wound infection and sheer exhaustion. We went on to feed exclusively for 8 mnths. I think as long as you are expressing the missed feed then it shouldn't interfere with your supply too much, but tiktok is the expert there.

wrt to the flat nipples, there is a device you can get called a niplette (by Avent)which is upposed to draw the nipple out to allow baby to latch better....have you tried one? I don't know if they are any good, but someone might have had some experience of using one.

Take care lovely and have some {{{{{{hugs}}}}}}

sory for mis texting i'm also tryin to watch a movie

dont tense about the weight lose in babys apparently my MW told me its nrm for babys to lose weight in the first week due to lack f milk supply, if you cant BF how about pumping it out and ggive it thru a bottle i did wid my daghter and found the supply wasnt effected as much, at least she got it.

Ellie exactly the same happened to me with Ella , I seriously suspected the weight conversion had been wrong, she was supposed to have been 7.14 and by day 10 she was 7.0 - I was a bit amazed at how heavy they said she was at birth as she was smaller and felt lighter than Amy (7.5) Anyhoo - She was feeding well, latched well, pooing and peeing as she should, so my midwife called the hospital and we both talked to the paed, and impressed on him how everything was tickety-boo apart from the weight and we felt that there was no need to panic (we also knew I was pretty acutely anaemic- have you considered that? I was chugging double spatone for 3 weeks). We loaned a hospital pump from the local surestart group,and worked out according to a formula my midwife had, how much EBM I'd need to give over a day to produce a slow rise in weight -I wish i had a copy, it was one for breastfeeding,not for formula supplements.
Anyway I ended up giving 80mls a day, by cup , it took until she was a month old before she'd got to birthweight+ , but since then, she's come on in leaps and bounds, She's not going to be on the same centile for weight and height as she's on 95th for height and was on 50th for weight at birth , but she's fine at 4 months, and i still wonder about how accurate the first weight was..

Ellie, if you suspect the birthweight, then you may be right to suspect the intervention of formula and expressing....it's good you are seeing someone on Tuesday. Raise the issue of birthweight with them, too.

Hensmum - it is not a great sign to have lost 11 per cent, but it is so not a sign the baby needs formula (unless there is something else going on). It is a sign that the breastfeeding needs fixing...and not by limiting feeds to 3 hrly and 15 mins a side with a formula top up. That does not fix breastfeeding. Instead it undermines confidence and stops milk from being produced in the quantities needed.

You did really well to overcome that.

You may be right about it having a longer lasting effect though - those early days are important for setting the scene, and establishing a robust supply.

Next time, you'll know a lot more

(BTW, Ellie doesn't need to eat well or keep fluids up except for her own health - it will not make a difference to her bf.)

Reading your message brought back so many memories. At 3 days old, my son had lost 11% of his body weight - they worry at anything over 10%. The midwife assistant told me I had to breastfeed ever 3 hours for 15mins each side and give 2oz of formula after each feed, and express for 10mins after each feed. I said how important breastfeeding was to me and that I did not want to give formula and she said "well, it's either that or your son goes into hospital to have a drip put in his arm. Is that what you want?" So, of course, we started on the formula and feeding regime.
If I could turn back time, I would find a breastfeeding expert and ask their advice. Feeding on a routine felt wrong at the time, as did limiting his time on the breast, but I didn't know enough to argue.
Anyway, we got through that and I managed to exclusively breastfeed for a while but we ran into more problems and he's been on formula since 10 weeks old. I don't know if the early problems with breastfeeding led to the later ones, and ultimately to me giving up but it certainly didn't help and made me feel like the worst mother ever. I thought I was doing really well with the feeding and my beautiful boy was losing weight He was also dehydrated (lack of wet nappies, hoarse cry, urates in nappy) so I know he was not getting enough and it wasn't just a case of wonky weighing or growth charts.

My advice to you is to listen to the HVs etc but realise that they are not breastfeeding experts. Talk to La Leche League (I had great help from them via email) and get to as many clinics as you can. In the meantime, make sure you are eating well and drinking lots of water and breastfeed as much as you can.
Huge hugs to you, I know how hard it is.

A bf counsellor really helped me. As did the videos by Jack NEwman on www.thebirthden.com website.

Sorry - I can't do the link. The website doesn't seem to be working properly at the moment.

And no - am not at all confident she was weighed correctly at birth but I guess will never know

Thanks tiktok. I was not clear - she feeds 2/3 hourly but sometimes she is too full for formula. She probably gets about 4 lots formula a day.

There is a babycafe on near me on tues. I think I will take her along there and speak to the bf counselor.

Well, she started refusing bottles at about 3 months, but I think she'd have gone without before that. Looking back I would have tried it as soon as my milk was established. I do think the least worrisome thing might be to bite the bullet and go for just bf now, but I didn't have the courage to do it.

Hi, Ellie, I am rushing but here is something, anyway!

I agree - you need real life expert help.

Feeding 2-3 hrly and twice at night is prob not enough for a baby who needs to gain weight pronto - even with the cluster in the evening. I would be wondering if that birthweight was right, though....you haven't said how she is being weighed, and if you are confident it's accurate. She sounds ok from her description

She's having a lot of formula - if she is getting 2-3 ounces 7 or 8 times or more a day, there cannot be room for much breastmilk The rough rule of thumb is 2.5 ounces per pound of body weight in 24 hours....if we do the maths, that's a massive amount, and actually more than she might have if she was fully ff.

Sorry I have to dash, but this sounds a real pickle...you need RL help from someone who can watch you feed, and check milk transfer, and who can work out how to reduce those top ups.

You sound motivated and determined, and that really helps

If you are under the paed, then there may be a bf expert on the team, or you can call one of the helplines (though this is a tricky situation, and I would want a proper bfc, not a peer counsellor, and an experienced one at that).

Get the experts in!
This happened to me, DS was re-admitted to hospital at 6days old having lost 20% of his birthweight. He had FF and EBF through an NG tube. Eventually I got a decent midwife who showed me how to latch him on properly and I BF for a year.
Don't let them frighten you and get help.
Good luck!

Sorry put your reply on to help me remember when typing meant to take it off again!

I can't really say a lot, because there's not enough info here....need info on her weight, feeding freq, what you have done so far, are you using two, three or even four breasts, what about breast compression, how accurate is the weight, what's she doing re wees and poos, how much formula, how much ebm....

Babies who are not gaining weight are a real concern - the worry is they might be perfectly ok, and that intervention is not appropriate, but the other worry is that they are not taking in enough calories to really get going with the feeding, and so their feeding actually gets worse

Thanks tiktok -

her birth weight was 8.5 pounds, and ten days later she was about 7.5. She had gained 10gm 2 days later. She has been checked by paed - she is warm and pink and alert and doing plenty of wees and poos every day. They are not worried that there is something wrong with her, just say that she needs more calories than I am providing.

I am feeding her whenever she seems to want it, which is every 2/3 hours in the day, with a hungry spurt in the evening when she has more, then bf twice during the night. I generally do once on each breast, then express off them. Though she is on to third side at moment cos I can't be bothered to get the pump and would rather it just went straight in if there's anything left! She generally feeds for about 20 mins off the first breast before taking herself off. After bf I give her between 2/3 oz formula depending on how much she wants. She gets whatever I have managed to express in the evening, which is between 1/3 oz, depending on how much I have bf during the day. If I have bf a lot there isn't much left to express and I will only get about half an oz off each breast at any one time. I have tried breast compression and that seems to help sometimes.

Ellie, really hope things get better.

I can't really say a lot, because there's not enough info here....need info on her weight, feeding freq, what you have done so far, are you using two, three or even four breasts, what about breast compression, how accurate is the weight, what's she doing re wees and poos, how much formula, how much ebm....

Babies who are not gaining weight are a real concern - the worry is they might be perfectly ok, and that intervention is not appropriate, but the other worry is that they are not taking in enough calories to really get going with the feeding, and so their feeding actually gets worse

You may need to feed far more often than she appears to 'need it' for instance....skin to skin, biological nurturing posits, will give you more early feeding cues to respond to.

I'll try to answer later this evening if you can give more info.

Thankyou susie is good to hear that your dd is now bf well.
how long did you express for after feeds?

I was in this position too, a few months ago. I found it so dispiriting and so hard to have the confidence to trust yourself and your breasts. I can't add much to the advice here but I just wanted to say two things.

We mix fed, giving a little bit of formula /ebm after each feed, with two-hourly feeds for weeks. It did work BUT I often wonder if just by going to bed with the baby and feeding solidly for two or three days I would have got the same result weight-wise. I did feel that going on to mix feeding caused me an immense amount of stress and concern over my milk supply. It might be worth it in the long run, if difficult to have confidence to do in the short run, to purely bf.

Secondly, we did an experiment of feeding with formula top ups for four days and then with ebm for four days and she put on three times as much with the ebm top ups so HAVE CONFIDENCE!! And good luck.

BTW - DD has decided to be exclusively bf - apart from the odd ounce or two of warmed milk which she likes to go to sleep with sometimes. DD 18 weeks now, mum and baby happy and healthy.

So you've been made to feel like this. Wishing you the best of luck. It can all turn out well. We're living proof.

tiiiiikkkkktoooookkkkk - are you there?

forgot to say - one breast is producing much more milk than the other - in fact is nearly dried up - how can I stop this?

Hey people - this thread was so darn useful before that am giving it another go....

DD did not gain any weight and now has to be ff top up after every bf. So the feeds go - bf, ff top up, express. Which is time consuming but I really want to keep up the bf so will have to carry on. Apart from at night when I can't be arsed to make up a bottle and she seems happy with just breast. She is being weighed again tomorrow and I really hope she has gained cos can't think what else to do.

Need some advice please - want to get her off formula as it gives Molly a tummy ache but I can't see how I can get my milk supply up - am expressing as much as can and feeding whenever she needs it but my boobs aren't producing enough! Any ideas about boosting milk production?

Plus - am still using nipple shields and know I should stop but am scared of trying as know it will hurt. Any tips on how to wean her off them? Have flat nipples. How did you do it denny?

difficult. although good for them when they get older i suppose! [fast metabolism that is]. Do hope you get the right advice [sorry to be so lame, don't really know what to suggest if your supply is ok.]

No, but I dont think there's a problem with my feeding, I think its genetics- well paed told me that with each of the other boys- as fara s I can work out the reason theyre all about 2 stone is that they have a particularly fast metabolism, that simple.

aw sorry Peachy. Have you tried the pump?

Ellie- if you look at the april thread you'll see that Bas is also having weight gain issues, has been stuck at 8lb for 3 weeks now, re-weigh tomorrow. Desperately dont want to ff either, and holding out as long as possible. was doing ok until some comments from dad, and am now more tearful and strressed. hold each others hands, yes?

Ellie - none of my dc regained their birthweight till age 1 month and they were exclusively bf. Can only think the reason the health profs are making so much fuss for you is that you have flat nipples.

Ameda Egnell hire out the big heavy breast pumps. One of those might help you express more. The more your baby (or the machine) sucks, the more milk you will make. The milk production can be a little slow with a first baby - I know it was for me, but it doesn't mean you can't bf your baby, and pumping will increase your supply, as will persevering with baby at the breast.

Being stressed out is not helping. Any one telling you that you can't do it, or it's not worth the bother, is not helping. Eat, drink, rest, feed your baby and relax. Be with your baby as much as possible, eg baby in sling, co-sleep. It will be for a short time, trust me.

Good luck, and well done for sticking with it so far. It will be worth it when you have established bf and don't need supplementing any more.

so glad LLL were helpful. Expressing really helped me, but had to get a hospital pump [they hire them out] the shop bought one was pants.

do what ever feeding combination you need to,to get through it.You sound like your doing everything right and trying really hard.Don't be hard on yourself,time will fly by and whatever you do be proud of yourself.Your a good mum with out a doubt

No real advice as such but just to say, i know its hard but try not to worry too much. My DS1 lost weight and i was told to ff..i resisted inititally but then did give formula top ups after bf. DS was fine and we were fully bf again within a couple of weeks.

I expressed lots too and its not great but does work. I also continued to express once a day and used to give one expressed milk feed a day which worked well for us as gave me a mental break ffrom bf.

By giving some formula now you are not necessarily going down a one way street to ff. Sounds like you are doing a great job.

Bump - how are things Ellie? Hope you are OK.

Ellie no real advice 4 you just wanted to send you some hugs and say well done you for persevering. As you know i have the same problem and all I can say is it does get easier bit by bit. DD2 is now 4 weeks and managing to feed without the shields now, just have to be extra careful with positioning as can still get sore really quickly.

Hope things start settling down quickly for you and dont feel guilty about anything - you are trying you best and that is all you can do.

PS - it may be worth pointing out to DH the financial implications of switching to formula, my DH is a tight fisted git so is all for BF

ellie glad LLL was a good help. just wanted to 2nd what vs said re the formula - i ended up having to give dd some formula top ups as i could not keep up with the expressing all the time, and i was so gutted - now it is like a dim and distant memory and i can't even remember how to make up a bottle. the formula helped get us over a hurdle and now we are exclusively bf at 5mths - you can do it!

Ellie, I understand you feel crap about giving her the formula, but please remember what I said to PFJ, if you're having such a hard time of it rather than feel guilty and get upset and stressed, try to be proud of every bit of BM you are managing to get into her rather than upset about the bits of formula you're using to tide you over this difficult time, you could easily have decided to give up and you haven't, which in my book is commendable.

Thank you all so much for your advice. I rang the La Leche League last night and the woman I spoke to was brilliant, gave me loads of good advice and meant I was a bit more informed when MW came today. I did give her some formula in the wee small hours this morning after she had fed constantly for about 3 hours and was still hungry. She lapped it up and I sobbed but am feeling a bit more positive today. She had a ff at lunchtime so I could go and sleep but she also had ebm bottle too, and the expressing seems to be working a bit better, boobs feel fuller etc. DP is a bit all for - oh, let's just whack her on the formula is much easier, but I have explained to him that I want this to be very much a temporary thing. Anyway must go she's waking up! Time for another feeding marathon.....

Thanks again people, was feeling really shitty last night and having you lot there really helped.

Well done for not jusrt giving up. What about a babymoon. Lots of skin to skin and 24 hours at least in bed with baby feeding whenever she wants. Get DP to wait on you hand and foot and just eat, sleep, feed and rest.

I do hope it all gets a lot better for you.

ellie - poor you, bf is really hard (i wish i'd known that before my dd). not much advice really but only experience to share. my dd took more than 3 weeks to regain birth weight, byt like yours was alert, pooing, weeing and pink so i figured that she was fine. i think to much store is set by weighing - different scales each time, had she just fed or just pooed could make a big difference. i'm still not convinced she was weighed properly in the first place.
i saw several different mw's and a bf counsellor, they were all so nice and very 'convincing' but all said totally different things! so in the end i just followed my instincts. clare byam cook's book was a great help. at 9 weeks i'm still bf, it's still a full time job but much easier than at first although i still don't like it. i had lots of mini targets - another week then i'll think again etc. expressing has been great btw!

keep all your energy for making milk and eat loads!

Victoriansqualor, in answer to your question -

after feeding my baby I expressed what I could, because the baby had fed and therefore had the fore milk (the thirst quenching 'starter') any 'hind' milk (the thicker, creamer 'main course') left could then be kept and added to through the day to give a bottle of ebm later.

I've seen some people on MN claiming there's no such thing as fore/hind milk, or that when the baby feeds they get the hind milk through the foremilk. All that aside, this was recommended to me by my very supportive and pro-bf GP after I had been let down by my HV, in the same way the OP has.

It worked is all I can say.

re the helplines just try them all, i think they have more volunteers in some geographical areas thann in others, eg i got great help from 3 local bfn volunteers but we have no nct for miles around, it's just pot luck where you stay how easy it is for these (WONDERFUL!) people to get to you

so sorry Ellie you've got this worry - i really second telephoning the La Leche League - they were very helpful to me when i had breastfeeding problems.

Ellie, I second everything that has been said here. It is better to BF exclusively and to build up your supply -but supplement feeding is not the end of the world. Don't let them bully you into doing something you don't think is right. Phone the helplines as soon as possible.
Whatever happens it will be ok - and you will not have not failed your baby...logically you may know that but with your hormones all over everywhere it is hard to see...you have to keep telling yourself this is normal and I will feel better soon. I think it is good to cry especially so soon after giving birth...it's part of sorting your hormones out! You really shouldn't feel ashamed about it. You are allowed to cry as much as you like...and sod anyone who thinks you shouldn't or doesn't understand ...men!
My DD2 slept really well for the first few days (hasn't done since!)and then seemed a bit 'jumpy'. The MW sent me to the hospital to get her blood glucose levels checked...
They didn't do a blood test, said she hadn't been fed enough - I should have woken her up more ...and she had lost too much weight (later I found out she hadn't). I had to feed her straight away...I remember sitting in a staff room (while people came and went) desperately and unsuccessfully trying to get this sleepy baby to BF - I was almost hysterically crying. They gave her a ff in front of me and she lapped it up (but I'm guessing by then she had woken up more...and was interested because it was something new).. I carried on sobbing...I left still sobbing. I felt like such a bad mother and such a failure and thought she might not BF again...it felt like the end of the world. I went to the supermarket (still sobbing) and bought some formula and bottles. When I got home she wanted to BF and I stopped sobbing...now I feel quite angry with them for taking advantage of me in my sensitive state.
She was a contented baby (compared to DD1 -chronic colic etc etc -still described as 'lively' now). I used the formula in baby rice when weaning and at 14mths she is still BF...
BTW I think I found out the reason for her being 'jumpy' - pregnancy brain had kicked in when buying my decaff coffee (they had changed the packaging...) so I had been happily drinking gallons of normal coffee!!! Gosh I'm sure I should feel like a terrible mother now....

Ellie, hope you get good help. No one can say you must not supplement with formula - and no one can say all is well with your baby - just from reading your story here.

But if it's thought your baby needs more milk, then it can come from you but without the shields if possible, and frequently...you haven't said how often your baby is feeding, and upping the freq. and making sure she has at least two breasts, and if poss, three or four, each time will help.

Sometimes, babies who have really not been feeding well need help - for example, supplementary ebm - to give them the energy to feed better. I have no idea if this applies to you, and nor does anyone else here, so do keep a dialogue going with the midwives.

You cannot be forced to formula feed.

call someone and speak to them, then you will be well-informed for speaking with the midwives.

itsahardknocklife, sorry you felt let down by NCT. We are volunteers, doing this in our own time. Family and other stuff sometimes get in the way. Maybe you could have seen someone else,if there was another bfc in your area. I have had to change people's appointments as well at times

whoops sorry

Hi Ellie, I was in your position a few months back with my 7 month old Ds2. He was born at 33+5 weeks and weighed 4lb 8oz, he left SCBU weighing 4lb 5oz. I was fully BF and he wasn't gaining weight at all. Over 6 weeks he dropped from the 50th to below the 0.4th

A feeding tube was inserted to give him EBM after every BF, he gained weight, tube removed, weight lost, tube in, tube out from oct-dec. I was also told that I would have to stop BF and FF if he didn't gain weight. The week I was told that, Callum gained 9oz purely on BM. But the following week he only gained 2oz. We did give in and gave him this high energy formula that the hospital gave us and yes it did make him put on weight, so much that he went back up 2 precentiles.

I was then finally seen by a BF councillor in feb and was given lots of advice, and she said to stop with the formula and go back to full BF, which we did.

Callum has been on solids for about 5 weeks now, with BFs and the odd bottle of formula here and there (he can be very stubborn and refuses to feed sometimes) and now is dropping back towards the 0.4th which is where me and my HV think he is supposed to be. The high energy formula gave a false reading.

He is still BF and I am proud of myself for keeping at it, when so many HCPs were being so forceful with me to give up. I believe that Callum is a small child and will always be a small child.Giving him the formula gave an Artifitial weight gain.

Please phone one of the numbers, I phone the ABM and the lady I spoke to was very helpful. I know that weight gain is the be all and end with HCPs but sometimes they don't know what to do with a 'sereve FTT baby' (as Callum was discribed, though in truth he was just catching down) and all they see is 'must get weight onto that baby'

Callum was a good weight for 33 weeks but they forget that I had diabetes in pregnancy and I struggled with my diet control, so he was bigger than he was supposed to be.

I had 2 weekly weigh-ins at the start, which went to weekly at about 3 months. After seeing the BF councillor I stopped having him weighed each week, and now I have him weighed when I can bothered to go to the BF clinic (he is 13lb 8oz now at 7 months) but as a result of my experience with BF a premmie and facing so much pressure and resisting it, I have been asked to train as a 'Breastfeeding peer supporter'

Sorry its so long, but I just wanted you to know that you are not alone and there is support for you out there.

Good luck

Hi Ellie, I was in your position a few months back with my 7 month old Ds2. He was born at 33+5 weeks and weighed 4lb 8oz, he left SCBU weighing 4lb 5oz. I was fully BF and he wasn't gaining weight at all. Over 6 weeks he dropped from the 50th to below the 0.4th

A feeding tube was inserted to give him EBM after every BF, he gained weight, tube removed, weight lost, tube in, tube out from oct-dec. I was also told that I would have to stop BF and FF if he didn't gain weight. The week I was told that, Callum gained 9oz purely on BM. But the following week he only gained 2oz. We did give in and gave him this high energy formula that the hospital gave us and yes it did make him put on weight, so much that he went back up 2 precentiles.

I was then finally seen by a BF councillor in feb and was given lots of advice, and she said to stop with the formula and go back to full BF, which we did.

Callum has been on solids for about 5 weeks now, with BFs and the odd bottle of formula here and there (he can be very stubborn and refuses to feed sometimes) and now is dropping back towards the 0.4th which is where me and my HV think he is supposed to be. The high energy formula gave a false reading.

He is still BF and I am proud of myself for keeping at it, when so many HCPs were being so forceful with me to give up. I believe that Callum is a small child and will always be a small child.Giving him the formula gave an Artifitial weight gain.

Please phone one of the numbers, I phone the ABM and the lady I spoke to was very helpful. I know that weight gain is the be all and end with HCPs but sometimes they don't know what to do with a 'sereve FTT baby' (as Callum was discribed, though in truth he was just catching down) and all they see is 'must get weight onto that baby'

Callum was a good weight for 33 weeks but they forget that I had diabetes in pregnancy and I struggled with my diet control, so he was bigger than he was supposed to be.

I had 2 weekly weigh-ins at the start, which went to weekly at about 3 months. After seeing the BF councillor I stopped having him weighed each week, and now I have him weighed when I can bothered to go to the BF clinic (he is 13lb 8oz now at 7 months) but as a result of my experience with BF a premmie and facing so much pressure and resisting it, I have been asked to train as a 'Breastfeeding peer supporter'

Sorry its so long, but I just wanted you to know that you are not alone and there is support for you out there.

Good luck

I can't believe (or can I?) how little notice they're taking of you/the MUM's thoughts on how feeding was going!!To me it sounds like they've taken no notice of the fact you say things seemed fine,nappies,sleeping etc and come along and ruined all your hard work by undermining you and making you question things.Putting you under unnecessary pressure.You're not a performing monkey!!Neithers your lo.I think the bloody cheek of it!Right now your the one bf not them.I'd use some of the contacts above and try to muster your strength to find some PROPER support from people who know what they're talking about and who don't back new mums into a corner with unnecessary pressure so they can tick some boxes.Babies and mums are all different.I'm really sorry you've had this experience.I'm for the babymoon where you get everything you need and just be kind to yourself (better still find someone else to do that)and relax just you and baby.I'd say you had it down just right and you should go back to doing things how you were with some extra support from bf group/person.I'm crossing my fingers that you don't have to put up with anymore of that...

Ellie, keep going you're doing so well, no-one can tell you that you have to give formula. And no-one can make you weigh her either. If you are comfortable with her general health then maybe put it off for a day or so? Weight isn't the be all and end all of a baby's health, surely they know this?

The NCT weren't very helpful to me. I made an appt for a breastfeeding lady to come and see me, and she cancelled twice and couldn't come for another two weeks so it was too late by then

Ellie, I second what everyone else here says about the bf helplines- NCT were fab for me with dd1. And dh did give dd1 a bottle of formula almost every evening for about 9 weeks, then it just tailed off as both dd and I got better at the feeding lark. So, just to say you can move from mixed feeding to exclusive bf. You're doin' great, girl!

foxy, don't mean to split hairs but can I ask what you mean by a bottle of 'hind' milk, hind/fore milk are very often explained badly or not totally understood and I just want to help Ellie as much as possible.

Ellie, having been in a similar position I couldn't let this pass without lending some support and a {{hug}}.

You don't have to formula feed, but you might have to spend tomorrow in bed, resting and having a babymoon. Make sure you are eating well and drinking plenty of water. I also take Neals Yard Beauty Oil which has all the Essential Fatty Acids and Omegas for good nutrition. It is very important that you are healthy and rested. You can take some supplements from Breastfeedingheaven.com which do 'more milk' a tincture you mix with water. (Its gross BTW!)

I too had to express after every feed, and give a bottle of expressed 'hind' milk in the evening as a top up. I kept the pump in the fridge with the top on and didn't sterilise inbetween times BTW, just once a day.

It was bloody hard work, and knackering, but we got there. I owe it to a fab GP and self-belief (after 3 other DCs I still felt like a failure - so completely understand). It is hard to ignore a health professional, but they are not always right. this thread might help but it takes a lot of perseverence and determination sometimes. Good luck.

Hi,

I had a similar experience to you. I had flat nipples (like none existant) and I took my ds home at 5 and a half weeks using nipple shields. After a week I had a visit from the midwife and he'd lost weight. His nappies were very dry and my milk supply had started to dwindle. I wasn't told to ff, but I decided to start expressing again while trying to bf with the shields still (was impossible without)and fed him EBM in a bottle. Eventually I gave up because the schedule of feeding, bottlefeeding EBM and then expressing, washing up and starting the whole rigmarole again half an hour later, well it just got too much. I ended up just expressing milk for 6 months. It isn't easy but with the right info it is totally possible and worked for me. There are loads of tricks to make the whole routine work more easily.

I remember how gutted I was when he had lost weight so I really can empathise . I really, really really wanted to bf and cried so much. However, just remember whatever happens you are doing the best you can for your baby. It seems like such a long way away to me now he's 14 months and doesn't have a bottle and drinks cows milk.

If weight gain is the only thing then maybe it isn't so bad, but do look out for greenish and dry nappies and signs that your milk supply is going down. That would probably indicate that your baby might need some help with milk transfer and isn't getting the milk out very efficiently.

I hope some of this helps, and you sort things out .

Ellie hope you have got the help you need from one of the phone lines, make the decision on how to feed your dd yours and yours alone....... big hugs and hope things aregoing ok tonight

Oh god, and centile, not percentile. Sorry. And I expect you to take me seriously?...

what to do, sorry
not what too do

EllieG
I think, for a woman who wants to breastfeed (and you're doing really well so far), so called health professionals should not even be allowed to suggest formula feeds. It makes me sick, that, instead of giving you the support you need now, they are trying to make you take the easy option for them.
It is quite conceivable that your DD was weighed incorrectly at birth. Don't let them pressurise you into formula feeding.
You feel your DD is healthy - you are her mother and would be the first person to know if there was something wrong. Trust yourself. Contact La Leche League - they will give you good advice and support.
I had a similar experience with DD1. My health visitor was crap. Luckily I managed to remain strong enough to stick to my belief that I was doing ok, despite threats of hospital intervention by the HV if DD1 failed to gain sufficient weight. In the end she did, although she, now 5 yrs, remains on the 5th percentile (she was on the 50th when she was born). She is healthy, happy, active and slim. (Wish I was! )
As a mum of a newborn baby you are at your most vulnerable, but you must trust your insticts. You will be the one who knows, deep down, what too do. You will do what is best for you and your baby. Good luck. Stay strong. Big hugs.

I was in exactly the same boat as you and thought I was doing the right thing by switching to formula, as it was what the midwife suggested. I wish that I had been offered some help instead and been able to continue breast feeding for a bit longer. But, the main thing is that I now have a very healthy toddler and I don't think about it anymore.

Tiktokt hasnt posted yet or I'd say just listen to her.

First thing is you need to make sure little Molly is feeding well, this can be told by her nappies, how long/often she feeds for/if she seems satisfied after a feed etc, weight is only an indicator, it is not the be all and end all!

FGS Alex went from 10lb 3oz to 8lb 15oz in four days! The only reason we werent referred t paeds was because I knew the rest of it and said I wasnt happy with that weight being the issue when I knew he was feeding well, but you need to be sure of this, from your OP you do seem sure, but I'd call a Bf helpline just to get someone physical on the otehr end of the phone agreeing with you, k?

Remember these people told you it's not feasible to feed with flat nipples!!!

As for having to use formula, tell them to fuck off, no-one can make you use it, if she is having an issue with her weight best thing is for you to feed her as much as you possibly can, I second what someone said about the babymoon, turn your phones off, get DSD a few DVDs and some snakcs for the both fo you and the then go to bed (Is DP off work still? If not DSD is old enough to help out anyway, she could always get into bed with you!) skin-to-skin as much as possible and keep M practically latched on constantly, even three or four sucks (Which seems liek sod all to us) is doing something y'know?

Obviously be aware that losing weight is not good, if she is happy to take the boob though, I don;t see how you fafing about expressing is going to help her, yeah sure, taker her off the breast to exoress so you can give her more nah. Put her to the breast more.

Lastly, you're not a failure, if you decide to FF then that's ok honey, it's fine, but make sure it's a dcision you make and not one youre forced into. Stand your ground, tell them you know what you're talking about and hopefully they'll get you some proper help, do they have BF clinics etc in Jersey???
I'm sure someone will know.

Love to you & M, remember J and DP need to help, give J the 'big sister jobs' and as for DP, I'm sure he'll do as he;s told.

(Was J BF? I'm sure it won't help your feelings eitehr way, but remember, different situation, totally different, you;re a great mum.)

PS <<<big hugs>>> because I know how awful this feels.

Ellie, if anyone is suggesting that you must get some weight on your baby now, it might be worth waving this research paper at them.

In a nutshell, these people took a group of teenagers and measured a risk factor for heart disease. The ones who had the worst risk were the ones who gained the most weight in the first 2 weeks of life.

Their conclusion: that babies are meant to start off with a slow weight gain; artificially increasing the weight gain can affect their health later.

Obviously, if you're experiencing supply problems, you need to get this sorted out and you need expert help.

But don't let them bully you with weight gain targets. More is not necessarily better. As long as she's well in herself, you have time in hand to get any problems sorted out.

I had a similar start with dd1 - it was hard to get my supply up but it worked and I went on to feed her til she self weaned at 19 months. I'm happy to talk about my experiences but truly, I think you need to speak to a real live person who can watch you feed and give you advice tailored to your own situation.

Please please phone one of the helplines for more advice and look at the links and so on. It really sounds as though your mw and paed are fixing on formula as the easy (for them!) solution - there are several things it seems they haven't done that they could have done:

- take into account the big picture e.g. wet and dirty nappies, alertness and so on.
- rule out the misweighing issue rather than putting all their faith in two pairs of scales.
- encourage you to supplement with more breastmilk not formula instead.
- look really closely at the latch as something they could improve, and do something like weigh before and after a feed, perhaps (I'm sure I've heard of this being done though someone might correct me) to assess milk intake.

To be honest everything you're reporting them saying screams 'not that bothered about bf on your behalf and keen to get you to ff so they don't have to do any more' - but they should be bothered about you keeping bf for your little one's sake as well as yours, and nothing in what you write sounds like bf is scuppered yet, this is just a difficult time. I'm not a bf counsellor, so I'm not writing from that point of view, but I can say that as someone who's been reading bf boards for years now, what you write sounds so so familiar - IME of observing people from afar (through their posts for help) in your situation it could go either way from now - and it could depend on the expertise of the support you can line up for yourself. You shouldn't have to line up your own expert help, that ought to be what you get by default, but sadly that isn't always the case, which is where the helplines come into their own.

For what it's worth I agree with the others, no one should ignore weight considerations, but formula isn't even the obvious thing to give as a supplement - breastmilk is that, so you can still supplement without switching to ff, if you need to supplement. All is really not lost!

You're doing brilliantly - this stage is also awful for baby blues and so on and generally feeling teary and awful, so that won't be helping - but you are doing really well. Good luck with getting some better information and help soon.

Hi Ellie

If she's alert, lots of wet nappuies, etc then don't panic- she's ok

FF will diminish milk BUT not in any manner thats irretrievable if you feel you want to follow advife, rebuilding supply takes effort but is very doable

call the ABM or one fot he ohers- but dont be told you HAVe to do anything, its your choice.

if you choose to give one bottle, we did this before with ds2 and it seemed that if DH gave it it confuised baby less with reagrds to me still BF

no no ellie, please don't lose confidence. you have been poorly advised and of course they really mean well. look, she isn't starving, even the mw has said this.

she will probably sleep heavily after a ff, it is not as easily digested as breastmilk, just think how you feel after a rather large meal.

you just need some better advice on what and how to do it.

Ellie, have you been in touch with any of the bf organisations? They all have phone helplines and will often be able to come to you and give you hands on help with attachment, etc. The counsellors are very highly trained and know far, far more about infant feeding than 99% of midwives, gps and paediatricians.

Instead of automatically saying 'formula' to you, your mw and paed should be looking at why bf isn't going so well and helping you to improve it. The reason they're not is because they don't know.

If your baby is generally settled, weeing and pooing regularly, has alert periods, is pink - everything you say she is - then I wouldn't think there is any major panic. You have time to work on the bfing issues and make it work.

Your priority should be to get in touch with one of the helplines (they're open until 10pm tonight) and don't be pressured into giving more formula until you've tried all the solutions they suggest - and there will be plenty of things for you to try.

Don't panic, you'll get there! It's a tricky thing to crack but with the right help and support you should get there .

I'm not an expert at all but I don't see how the only measure of 'thriving' can be weight gain, that's far too simplistic. Everything you've said about dd suggests a baby who is thriving. What is 'not gaining weight properly'? Isn't that "not following a consistent line on this chart I've got" as opposed to any empirical measure of 'properly'? Or put it another way: if she wasn't being weighed, would you be worried?

There are any number of reasons why today could have been a bad day and it sounds like you really need better support, not finger-wagging "I want 40g by Monday or else" kind of ultimatums.

I failed to bf completely, and I completely understand your feelings of guilt. Logic has nothing to do with it. But please, please, having got started, use all the resources MN has to help you and don't be bullied.

Where are you? I do so hope you are local so I can come round and give you a big hug. Wherever you are, there will be a MNer who can do the same ...

Thanks so much, I just feel that have lost all confidence in my ability to do this now. DD has settled after ff and is all sleepy so perhaps is best for her? I am going to ring one of those lines in a mo I think so am bit better informed for when mw comes back tomorrow

xpost wilf

i do like what hunker says about getting someone else to ring and explaining that it is volunteers. i had far more success getting hold of someone on a weekend night than during the day, as people with children are often at home then.

numbers also posted below!

right hand side all the numbers. read instructions at bottom about contacting them.

i can't say anything to you about your baby's weight, or what is happening re getting milk into her. you really really need to speak to a properly trained counsellor immediately.

tell your dp that the best thing for everyone is for you to keep on bf and his job is to help you to achieve that. he will be really needed to support and help you.

i had a lot of trouble beginning and establishing bf (also had rather flat nipples) but i persevered and it was all fine. it will probably be for you too but please do seek help.

PS I imagine one of the things the experts will say is to undress your baby, get her all snuggly and 'skin to skin' with you as much as possible, with as much free access to your breasts as possible so she can feed whenever she needs to. At 10 days she might well be unsettled and seem hungry precisely because she wants to feed a lot and frequently to build up the supply - it's a supply and demand thing. if it were me - and I know it's difficult to have the confidence to do this when medical people are telling you otherwise - I'd NOT be giving formula unless there were real health worries (ie she was looking listless, not weeing/pooing, seeming dehydrated etc).

I would just be letting her feed, feed, feed, even if it is every half hour...

i got good advice here

oh - feed from both sides every time, offer a 3rd and 4th side if need be!

breast compressions too

Just want to say again that I'm not an expert, but until a real one arrives, my understanding is that any FF at all will diminish your supply, so it tends to be a slippery slope from the one bottle onwards. Not that I'm trying to depress you, but don't let yourself be bullied into it.

We had some very unsettled days with DS at the beginning where he just wanted to feed ALL the time and was upset and didn't sleep well, but he did settle down and did well and I fed him for a year.

If DD is making lots of wet nappies and feeding frequently and seems alert, then I don't think there's cause for concern, but a real expert can be more useful than I can.

any experts out there?

sooooooo sorry to read all this, have been there, its awful.

what worked for us...i know every case is different tho..
- i got great help from the BFN - improved latch, which i think increased the milk transfer
- a really hellish 72hrs (like you they were coming back to check weight progress) where i fed every 2hrs, expressed in between and gave 2oz EBM after every feed - it was exhausting but she put on weight and never lost any again
- dh telling hV to get stuffed! you MUST get dh on side, you need support

feeding dd just now and she is a bit wriggly, but i'll search out my old threads and link to them, i got great advice here

1lb does seem a lot, esp when she seems ok otherwise, and i have heard of people being given wrong birth weights before

they are expected to lose i think 10% of their birthweight anyway?

EllieG, please phone one of the Bf helplines for advice on how to help yourself in this situation since I suspect you've not been getting the best BF specialist advice...

Breastfeeding Supportlines
National Breastfeeding Helpline 0844 20 909 20
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers helpline 08444 122 949
Breastfeeding Network Supporterline: 0844 412 4664 Breastfeeding Network Drugline: 0844 412 4665
La Leche League Telephone Helpline: 0845 120 2918
National Childbirth Trust Breastfeeding line: 0870 444 8708

You can phone them now - there should be someone there on one of them.

I'm not sure your DP's comment was helpful at this stage: you can BF, you have been BFing and even having given a bit of formula, you are still BFing.

You are not a failure, you're a success, but you need a bit of specialist help to get you over this hiccup.

Well done for getting for 10 days, keep posting - will check back and post back some more later this evening - and in the meantime, please ring the helplines for specific advice and to offload your feelings a bit?

oh ellieg i am so sorry they are undermining you and letting you down with this very unhelpful advice.

if your baby needs more milk then you need help to produce more with your breasts, not to give formula. or at least be told that by someone who knows more about bf.

have you go helpline numbers? will post them in a sec.

Oh you poor, poor thing. I'm as hell reading your post. Firstly, bf babies often take time to regain their birthweight. I'm not suggesting being blase about weightloss but in my own personal experience, I was threatened with dd being readmitted to hospital if she didn't 'turn it around' wrt her weight. She was a week old ffs! Anyway, I got some advice from some people who actually know something about bf and that gave me the confidence to dig my heels in and continue to bf. Have you tried breast compression? This worked a treat for dd and I am convinced it what helped her to start putting the hallowed weight back on.

Please give it a go. Trust yourself - hopefully Tiktok or others may be along with advice about resisting unnecessary pressure to ff.

Lots of love to you. Keep posting, we're here to support you. Congratulations on your dd btw

can't wait to see what VS posts - she'll be hopping mad over what the MW said and am sure she'll have some helpful advice

ellie - big big hugs - you are doing a fab job

only thing I can advise is for you to eat a bit more - nice high fat high calorie stuff like cake. you've got months and years to sort out any weight loss for yourself so just try and eat loads for LO now

you don't have to ff by monday if she hasn't gained the weight - how dare they tell you that. if they can't be more helpful get a BF counsellor in or ask for a different MW

Thank you. Big hugs making me even more sniffly but is nice to hear some positives

p.s. and my sister has inverted nipples and had to use shields, and it was very hard work, so you're doing really really well!

Oh your poor thing, no wonder you feel terrible, they're really having a go at you aren't they?

I'm no BF expert but our baby was weighed incorrectly in the hospital - something about converting from kilos to pounds and it caused no end of trouble, so it does happen. Sure someone like Tiktok will be along in a minute to give you some more expert advice but, this is very important:

YOU ARE NOT A FAILURE AS A MOTHER! You are doing your best in very difficult circumstances. Have a big hug

{{{{{}}}}}}}

That's it basically - DD who is 10 days old got weighed today and she had lost over a pound which is too much. MW knows how important it is to me to BF but said she would have to speak to paediatrician. He initally said to give formula after every BF but she pointed out that would be crap for my supply so they said to give one ff in the evening, which have just done.

I have had probs BF from the start, have very flat nipples so been using shields, and they think this is the reason why she is not gaining weight properly. Thing is, she is alert, pink, sleeping and feeding (I thought) well, pooing and weeing properly and generally happy. DP queried whether she might actually have been weighed incorrectly at hospital and given wrong birth weight, which they said was possible, but unlikely, and that we would never know. Today I was advised to express after every feed to boost my milk supply and we have had the worst day EVER. She clearly hasn't had enough food and hasn't slept properly and been miserable all day.